Sunday Pick Tech Solutions How one of China's biggest tech companies is tackling carbon removal with Xu Hao
You're listening to ted talks daily where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm elise Hugh and today we have a special episode of another podcast from the ted audio collective handpicked by us for you. This time it's an episode from the ted Tech miniseries on how technology can help to generate a greener and more equitable future. Have you ever wondered what video games in climate Tech have in common? Well, in today's episode host cheryl dorsey sits down with Shu ha who runs sustainability initiatives at Tencent. Tencent is one of China's largest technological companies. It's behind the popular Chinese messaging APP WeChat, the world's largest video game vendor, and is now an up and coming force in carbon removal. They discussed the role mega corporations can play the climate movement where carbon technology currently is and how tenc cents video games are an unlikely and exciting source of climate education for hundreds of thousands. Ted Tech is a show that features talks and conversations that explore the many ways in which.
（您正在收听TED Talks Daily，我们每天为您带来激发好奇的新想法。我是Elise Hugh，今天我们为您精心挑选了TED音频集旗下另一个播客的特别节目。这次是TED科技迷你系列中的一集，探讨技术如何帮助创造一个更绿色、更公平的未来。你是否曾想过气候科技中的电子游戏有什么共同点？在今天的节目中，主持人Cheryl Dorsey与腾讯可持续发展项目负责人徐浩（Shu Hao）坐了下来。腾讯是中国最大的科技公司之一。它是广受欢迎的中国通讯应用微信、全球最大的视频游戏供应商的幕后推手，如今也是碳移除领域一股新兴的力量。他们讨论了大型企业在气候运动中可以扮演的角色，碳技术目前的发展状况，以及腾讯的视频游戏如何成为数十万人一个出人意料且令人兴奋的气候教育来源。TED Tech是一个以演讲和对话为特色的节目，探索技术影响社会的多种方式。）
Technology impacts society. If you want to hear more insights like this, listen to ted Tech wherever you get your podcasts, and learn about the ted audio collective at audioective dot ted dot com now on the episode.
（技术影响社会。如果您想听到更多此类见解，请在您获取播客的任何平台收听TED Tech，并访问 audioective.ted.com 了解TED音频集。现在开始本期节目。）
---
Welcome to ted Tech. A podcast from ted I'm your host, cheryl dorsey. Today, we're continuing our special miniseries about climate solutions and the technology that can lead us into a greener, more equitable future.
（欢迎来到TED Tech。我是主持人Cheryl Dorsey。今天，我们将继续我们的特别迷你系列，探讨气候解决方案以及能引领我们走向更绿色、更公平未来的技术。）
Across four episodes, we're bringing you conversations from ted's countdown climate summit in Nairobi, Kenya, where some of the world's greatest visionaries shared cutting edge solutions to the ongoing climate crisis. It's the defining challenge of our time. So how will we meet it?
（通过四集节目，我们将为您带来TED在肯尼亚内罗毕举行的倒计时气候峰会的对话，在那里，一些世界上最伟大的远见者分享了应对当前气候危机的前沿解决方案。这是我们时代的决定性挑战。那么，我们将如何应对？）
---
Before we dive into today's conversation, let's pause to consider a sobering fact. Even if we halted all emissions today, the carbon already in our atmosphere would continue to warm the planet for decades to come. That's why the world's attention is increasingly turning to carbon removal, and why leaders like Dr Shu how are so pivotal in shaping the solutions of tomorrow. Dr howe serves as vice President of sustainable social value at Tencent, one of the world's largest technology firms, and the company behind WeChat with over a billion active users. In this role, he leads ton's carbon neutrality lab and directs carbon X, the company's ambitious platform investing in breakthrough carbon removal and decarbonization technologies, particularly in hard to abate sectors like cement, steel and chemicals.
（在深入今天的对话之前，让我们先停下来思考一个严峻的事实。即使我们今天停止所有排放，大气中已有的碳仍将在未来数十年继续使地球变暖。这就是为什么世界的注意力正日益转向碳移除，也是为什么像徐浩博士这样的领导者在塑造未来解决方案方面如此关键。徐浩博士担任腾讯可持续社会价值副总裁，腾讯是全球最大的科技公司之一，也是拥有超过十亿活跃用户的微信背后的公司。在此职位上，他领导腾讯的碳中和实验室，并负责碳寻计划（Carbon X），这是该公司一个雄心勃勃的平台，旨在投资突破性的碳移除和脱碳技术，特别是在水泥、钢铁和化工等难以减排的领域。）
Under his leadership, Tencent isn't just focused on reducing its own operational emissions, it's actively funding and accelerating early stage high risk climate solutions through its lab accelerating and infrastructure tracks, moving ideas from concept to commercialization. Today we'll explore with Dr howe what it takes to push carbon removal technologies from promising prototypes to real world impact and because it's important to challenge and contextualize these efforts. We'll also ask, why should a company like Tencent, known more for social platforms and gaming than heavy industry, be so invested in carbon removal? What role do Tech giants truly have to play in the global climate movement? It's an important conversation at a pivotal time, and I'm thrilled to welcome Dr Shu how to help us make sense of what's next.
（在他的领导下，腾讯不仅专注于减少自身的运营排放，还通过其实验室加速和基础设施路径，积极资助和加速早期高风险气候解决方案，将想法从概念推向商业化。今天，我们将与徐浩博士探讨，将碳移除技术从有前景的原型推向现实世界的影响需要什么，并且因为对这些努力提出质疑并置于具体背景中来理解很重要。我们还将提问：为什么像腾讯这样以社交平台和游戏而非重工业闻名的公司，会如此投入于碳移除？科技巨头在全球气候运动中真正需要扮演什么角色？这是一个关键时刻的重要对话，我很高兴欢迎徐浩博士来帮助我们理解未来的方向。）
---
So Dr howe, first of all, welcome. Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Carbon X specifically focuses on hard to abate industries and technologies like what's called carbon capture, utilization, storage, or CC. US.
（那么，徐浩博士，首先欢迎您。是的，我很荣幸。谢谢。非常感谢您加入我们。谢谢。碳寻计划特别关注难以减排的行业和技术，比如所谓的碳捕集、利用与封存，或称CCUS。）
What do you see as the single biggest misconception or challenge that needs to be overcome for some of these carbon removal technologies to really achieve widespread adoption and really like significantly impact global emissions?
（对于其中一些碳移除技术要真正实现广泛采用并对全球排放产生重大影响，您认为需要克服的最大误解或挑战是什么？）
---
The single challenge they face is actually they cost too much today. So, so we really need to push the technology forward so that they can reduce their cost and they can scale up. Then they can play, ah, a big role. So at the moment we see a lot of the technology are actually coming out of the laboratory in a research institute and become startups were actually integrated into many of the existing hard to abate sectors and began to make a material impact.
（它们面临的唯一挑战其实是目前成本太高。所以，我们真的需要推动技术进步，让它们降低成本并扩大规模。然后它们才能发挥重要作用。目前我们看到许多技术实际上正从研究机构的实验室里出来，变成初创公司，并开始融入许多现有的难以减排的行业，开始产生实质性的影响。）
By by material impact, I mean in the lab you're probably working on kilograms. So a few tents and then going into the industry you are working with at least1010 or10,010 or millions of tens. Then it is really helping some of the industry decarbonize. That is important because we have to have the option out there so that the industry know, okay, I can choose this pathway. Otherwise, let's say if the next technology is not there.
（所谓的实质性影响，我是指在实验室里你可能处理的是公斤级。可能只是几吨的量，而进入工业领域，你处理的是至少1010吨，或者10010吨，甚至成百上千万吨。这才能真正帮助一些行业脱碳。这很重要，因为我们必须提供这个选择，让行业知道，好吧，我可以选择这条路径。否则，比如说，如果下一代技术没有出现。）
You probably have some, what is so called technology locked in effect is you choose a relatively higher carbon technological pathway, you build a plant, that plant will be there for fifteen, twenty, thirty years, then the emission is almost locked in.
（你可能听说过所谓的“技术锁定”效应。意思是如果你选择了一个碳强度相对较高的技术路径，并建造了一个工厂，这个工厂将在那里存在十五年、二十年、三十年，那么排放量几乎就被锁定了。）
---
And I love that you speak to the ecosystem at large, because the more investment, the more time put in the advancement, the lower the costs. But that opportunity still has to be there, and there is the carbon X initiative, which funds projects across the labs. Can you share some examples from maybe one of the winning cohorts from this project that embodies this idea of Tech for good? Um, and this vision around what this kind of innovative approach or potential can be to really.
（我很欣赏您从整个生态系统的角度来谈，因为投资越多，在技术进步上投入的时间越多，成本就越低。但这个机会仍然需要存在，而碳寻计划（Carbon X）正是资助各实验室项目的倡议。您能否分享一下，比如说从这个项目的获胜团队中，有哪些体现了“科技向善”理念的例子？嗯，以及这种创新方法或潜力究竟能带来什么前景，以实现真正的...）
Scale so when we launched the first round of coming acts, what what we found very interesting if.
（规模化。当我们启动第一轮项目征集时，我们发现了一个非常有趣的现象...）
Look at all the winning startup cohort. Most of them are actually doing carbon utilization in China and then we think, okay, why is the reason? It's probably because, number one, we don't have a carbon price that's cover most part of the economy. We have our carbon market, but it's only covering part of the economy. It's expanding to cover most of the economic activities pretty soon, but at the moment that didn't cover that part. And secondly, carbon utilization in terms of so called rv issues, measurement, reporting and verification is complicated.
（看看所有获胜的初创团队。他们中的大多数实际上都在中国从事碳利用。然后我们就在想，好吧，原因是什么？很可能是因为，第一，我们没有覆盖大部分经济的碳价格。我们有自己的碳市场，但它只覆盖了部分经济。它正在迅速扩展，很快将覆盖大部分经济活动，但目前还没有覆盖到那部分。其次，碳利用在所谓的MRV（监测、报告与核查）方面很复杂。）
Because how do you calculate if I use one ton of carbon dioxide from a chimney? How much carbon abatement I have is technical and is complicated as a result.
（因为你如何计算如果我使用了一吨来自烟囱的二氧化碳？我实现了多少碳减排，这在技术上很复杂。）
These guys have to compete head to head with the fossil fuel alternative. Whether it's a make a plastic or make calcium carbonate or make building materials cement, they have to compete head to head.
（这些公司必须与化石燃料替代品正面竞争。无论是制造塑料、碳酸钙还是建筑材料水泥，他们都得正面竞争。）
With the fossil fuel alternative without the price on carbon.
（在没有碳定价的情况下，与化石燃料替代品竞争。）
---
And then the good thing about it, or exciting they are, actually. Much more than what we expected startups, they can actually compete with the fossil fuel alternative. They can make cement using steel, slack and carbon dioxide at a similar cost or sometimes even less than the fossil fuel alternative. They can make organic material. They can make chemicals using carbon dioxide cheaper than the traditional way they are actually making. Sustainableiation feel today is still a bit more expensive, but.
（而这件事的好消息，或者说令人兴奋的地方在于，实际上...远超出我们对初创公司的预期，他们实际上可以与化石燃料替代品竞争。他们可以用钢渣和二氧化碳制造水泥，成本相当，有时甚至比化石燃料替代品更低。他们可以制造有机材料。他们可以用二氧化碳制造化学品，成本比传统制造方式更低。可持续航空燃料（SAF）目前感觉仍然贵一些，但是...）
We actually see a viable pathway to really drive down the the cost so that they can be competitive one day. So you don't need a carbon price. If we look at electric vehicle leasing, battery Solar and wind, they are now competing head to head with the fossil fuel alternative. And then if we look at what are still happening in the laboratory, these guys are probably the next wave. So if we get waves and waves of waves of these emerging low carbon technologies, then we are really pushing the decarbonization agenda forward. That's really, ah, excites us.
（我们实际上看到了一条可行的路径来真正降低成本，使它们有一天能具有竞争力。所以你不需要碳价格。如果我们看看电动汽车租赁、电池、太阳能和风能，它们现在已经与化石燃料替代品正面竞争了。再看看实验室里仍在发生什么，这些公司可能就是下一波浪潮。所以，如果我们能迎来一波又一波这样的新兴低碳技术浪潮，那么我们真的在推动脱碳议程向前发展。这真的让我们很兴奋。）
---
It excites me that you're exc*ted about this, because I think I probably speak for everyone who's listening in now that we can hear just the enthusiasm and the possibility and the opportunity and I think so far in this space.
（您对此感到兴奋也让我很兴奋，因为我想我可能代表了现在在收听的所有人，我们能听出这其中的热情、可能性和机会。而且我认为迄今为止在这个领域...）
It's felt so out of reach to really solve these major challenges, so. How do you envision Tencent leveraging some of your strengths in AI and data and cloud computing, particularly for this space of advancing carbon removal and emissions reductions and, you know, really speaking to some of those solutions that you're exc*ted about? Yeah, so.
（感觉要真正解决这些重大挑战是那么遥不可及。那么，您如何看待腾讯利用其在AI、数据和云计算方面的某些优势，特别是用于推进碳移除和减排这一领域，并且，您知道的，真正投入到一些您所兴奋的解决方案中？是的，所以...）
---
We just talked a lot about kind of physical low carbon technology, right, as a technology company. The other half is sort of digital technology. So our approach see how we can leverage the digital technology to actually either help to hard to abate sectors being more effective, efficient, most likely in many of the cases being more efficient is actually being lower carbon for them simply because energy.
（我们刚才谈了很多关于物理层面的低碳技术，对吧，作为一家科技公司。另一半则是数字技术。所以我们的方法是探索如何利用数字技术，要么帮助难以减排的行业变得更有效、更高效——在许多情况下，变得更高效实际上就意味着碳排放更低，因为能源...）
Actually is a big part. Big share of their operating cost or using digital technology doing something you you can't actually do without it. And so, so conceptually, right? Digital technology actually improves the ability to doing everything much more granular. If I'm an operator in a plant with digital capability, you can.
（实际上是很大一部分。占他们运营成本的很大一部分。或者利用数字技术做一些没有它就做不了的事情。所以，从概念上讲，对吧？数字技术实际上提高了做任何事情的能力，使其更加精细化。如果我是一个拥有数字化能力的工厂的操作员，你可以...）
Do almost everything in the split of a second. Nowadays with the development of AI machine learning, you can almost envision that all plants will be running much more granular, which means the management of the plant will be much more efficient. As a result, they will produce same amount of output using much less resources. So we call it resource productive operations and then with a lot of the innovation in the digital space.
（在瞬间完成几乎所有事情。如今随着人工智能和机器学习的发展，你几乎可以预见到所有工厂的运行都将更加精细化，这意味着工厂的管理将更加高效。因此，它们将使用少得多的资源生产出相同数量的产品。所以我们称之为资源生产效率型运营，然后再加上数字空间的大量创新。）
Then you can achieve additional things. For example, there is, ah, the concept called virtual power plant. So with more renewable and great flexibility becomes a scarce resource. So we get flexibility, for example from batteries or energy storage facilities. But that costs a lot of capex. You need to buy a lot of batteries to put it on the grids so that you are flexible, but then you can try to match the generation and the, the production of the electricity and the use of the electricity.
（然后你就能实现更多事情。例如，有一个叫做“虚拟电厂”的概念。随着可再生能源的增加，巨大的灵活性成为一种稀缺资源。所以我们可以从电池或储能设施等获得灵活性。但那需要大量的资本支出。你需要购买大量电池接入电网以实现灵活性，但你可以尝试匹配发电和用电。）
More precisely so that you actually need less battery. So that is so called virtual power plant. Virtual means that if I want you to so called generate the user actually use less. If I want you to consume then the user use more. That can almost only be done by digital technology because we really need a lot of data, a lot of optimization and also split of a second reactions so that cannot be done manually can only be done digitally. That's only one examples. We have so many examples on similar.
（更精确地匹配，这样你实际需要的电池就更少。这就是所谓的虚拟电厂。虚拟意味着，如果我需要你所谓“发电”，实际上是让用户少用电。如果我需要你“消耗”，实际上是让用户多用电。这几乎只能通过数字技术来实现，因为我们确实需要大量数据、大量优化以及瞬时反应，这是人工无法完成的，只能数字化完成。这只是一个例子。我们还有很多类似的例子。）
Approach. So, so that is also a big part of the the innovation space. And then finally of course we have to solve the additional energy consumption as a result of all the development of digital technology, more data centers, more electricity consumption, but the solution is already out there. We just use more renewables. So like at Tencent, we have this policy saying okay, any additional energy we use we will use on renewables and any renewable we actually get. We use renewables on additional renewable projects. So we're not only pushing our own decarbonization agenda. We also want to help the renewable industries to get more capacity in the grid. Yeah, and.
（方式。所以，这也是创新领域很大的一部分。当然，最后我们必须解决由于数字技术发展、更多数据中心、更多电力消耗带来的额外能源消耗问题，但解决方案已经存在。我们只需使用更多可再生能源。就像在腾讯，我们有一项政策说：好的，我们使用的任何额外能源都将使用可再生能源，而我们实际获得的任何可再生能源，都将用于额外的可再生能源项目。所以我们不仅是在推进自身的脱碳议程，我们也想帮助可再生能源行业在电网中获得更多容量。是的，而且...）
---
I think that's important to highlight because. There is a growing concern about the emissions and the energy utility of the data centers and also where they are being established, how that's disruptive to the environment, I think from a physical, social aspect. But then of course, because of all of the growing needs of energy consumption, so pointing to renewables and usage is very prescient. What do you believe is the role of corporations like Tencent in the climate movement today?
（我认为强调这一点很重要，因为...人们越来越关注数据中心的排放和能源使用效率，以及它们的选址如何从物理和社会层面破坏环境。但当然，由于所有能源消耗需求的增长，所以转向可再生能源和高效利用是非常有先见之明的。您认为像腾讯这样的企业在当今的气候运动中扮演什么角色？）
Regardless of their business model or their product.
（不论它们的商业模式或产品是什么。）
---
There is a fairly straightforward or simple logic to this if we look at almost anything right? So any solution that?
（如果我们审视几乎任何事物，这背后都有一个相当直接或简单的逻辑，对吧？所以，任何...）
Solve big social or sustainability issues in the very long run will generate business value.
（从长远来看，能解决重大社会或可持续性问题的方案，都将产生商业价值。）
Sooner or quicker, Tencent we started with social network. So at that time it's actually a social issue because if we actually connect people more efficiently, you create a lot of social value, right? I guess a bit different with the normal business is that at the moment you're probably focusing on how do we create sustainability value first.
（或早或晚。腾讯是从社交网络起步的。所以那时它实际上是一个社会问题，因为如果我们能更有效地连接人们，你就创造了巨大的社会价值，对吧？我想与一般商业略有不同的是，目前你可能首先关注如何创造可持续性价值。）
And then try to capture the business value at a later time. And, and then the timescale may not be three to five years where a technology company used to maybe five to ten years. But if you have that vision or you have that patient, I think we'll get there. So, so that's why.
（然后再在晚些时候获取商业价值。而且，时间尺度可能不是科技公司过去习惯的三到五年，而可能是五到十年。但如果你有这样的愿景或者耐心，我认为我们能到达彼岸。所以，这就是为什么...）
Tencent, or like many of our peers, are all doing very similar things. So, so I think it's based on that belief.
（腾讯，或者像我们的许多同行一样，都在做非常相似的事情。所以，我认为这是基于这种信念。）
---
Tencent has a massive customer base and you mentioned that your video games can have an impact on climate education and advocacy. So can you speak more to this in the realm of of learning when we?
（腾讯拥有庞大的客户群，您提到您的视频游戏可以对气候教育和倡导产生影响。那么，当我们...时，您能多谈谈在学习领域的这方面吗？）
Start this number one, we have our own decarbonization agenda.
（首先，我们有自己的脱碳议程。）
As a result, we need to not only make our data center more efficient by renewables, we still have scope three emissions so that we have to leverage carbon credit.
（因此，我们不仅需要通过可再生能源提高数据中心的效率，我们还有范围三的排放，所以我们必须利用碳信用。）
So when we tap into the carbon credit vote, we say, okay, a lot of the work is actually protecting some of the ecosystem.
（所以当我们涉足碳信用领域时，我们说，好的，很多工作实际上是在保护某些生态系统。）
And then we realized that in many of our games, and the theme of the game actually fits this topic very well, because one of the heroes, one heroes, his background, maybe he is the son of the forest.
（然后我们意识到，在我们许多游戏中，游戏主题与这个话题非常契合，因为其中一个英雄，他的背景，也许他是森林之子。）
The other hero may be guardian of the frozen world, or, ah, maybe some game is about apocalypse climate change world so that that make us naturally think, okay, can we leverage some of these themes with the the young players in the gaming world with the the work we're actually supporting in the physical world?
（另一个英雄可能是冰冻世界的守护者，或者，啊，也许有些游戏是关于气候变化导致世界末日的故事，这让我们自然而然地想到，好吧，我们能否在游戏世界里，用这些主题与年轻玩家互动，与我们实际在现实世界中支持的工作结合起来？）
So, so that's bring us to this idea. Okay? Can we integrate some of the real knowledge and real climate change elements into our games? So that's why we, we actually tried earlier this year in southeast Asia, is that welfare? Our games were just about to launch a new hero.
（所以，这就让我们产生了这个想法。可以吗？我们能否将一些真实的知识和真实的气候变化元素融入我们的游戏？这就是为什么我们今年早些时候在东南亚进行了尝试，那是公益性的吗？我们的游戏当时正要推出一个新英雄。）
This hero is actually the son of the forest, so he grew up in the forest. He is friends with all the animals in the forest and then they face challenges. So we say, okay, in in that region. So we face a lot of actual challenge, the mangroves, the pitatland, the biodiversity in the sea. And then we that's why we integrated a lot of these topics into the gaming world. And we also promise to the players if you do this and that's finish all the tasks in, in the game.
（这位英雄其实是森林之子，所以他在森林里长大。他和森林里所有的动物都是朋友，然后他们面临挑战。所以我们说，好的，在那个区域。我们面临着许多实际的挑战：红树林、泥炭地、海洋生物多样性。于是我们将大量这类主题融入了游戏世界。我们还向玩家承诺，如果你这样做，并且完成了游戏中的所有任务。）
We will actually, on your behalf, protect all of those ecosystems and forest.
（我们将实际上代表你们，保护所有这些生态系统和森林。）
And then? We just want to give it a try, and it turns out that over two, three weeks, we got like20 million plus players actually participated.
（然后呢？我们只是想试试看，结果在两三周内，我们就有超过两千万玩家实际参与了。）
That may make us really exciting because that's a. A pathway to the young generation. Deliver the message the way they like and it's not boring.
（这可能让我们非常兴奋，因为这是一条通向年轻一代的途径。用他们喜欢的方式传递信息，而且不无聊。）
Right. I guess another good thing we found out. Everybody cares. It's not just China or Asia or Europe or America. Everybody cares. So we plan to do things similar things like in.
（没错。我想我们发现的另一个好处是每个人都关心。不仅仅是中国、亚洲、欧洲或美国。每个人都关心。所以我们计划在世界各地的游戏中做类似的事情，因为每个人真的都在乎。这是一个与我们的日常生活息息相关的主题。）
All the games in parts of the world because everybody really cares. It's a topic that resonates to our everyday life.
（这是一个与我们日常生活产生共鸣的话题。）
---
As we look ahead, um, let's say to2030 is there one specific technology that you think really going? Move the needle on climate change.
（展望未来，嗯，比方说到2030年，有没有一项您认为真正能...在气候变化问题上取得突破的具体技术？）
For our decarbonization journey, we gonna ratify our commitment by2030 to be carbon neutral, but we won't stop there because we also.
（在我们的脱碳之旅中，我们将在2030年前确认我们的碳中和承诺，但我们不会止步于此，因为我们也...）
Committed to be net zero, which is a more strict version of. Ah, carbon neutral, because we gonna try to reduce all the emissions we possibly can using.
（承诺实现净零排放，这是比碳中和更严格的版本。啊，碳中和，因为我们将尝试利用所有可能的技术来减少所有排放。）
Whatever technology that can be applied so our own dec capitalization journey won't stop at2030, we gonna continue to push through.
（无论什么可以应用的技术，所以我们自身的脱碳之旅不会在2030年停止，我们将继续推进。）
So we will also try to push the major low carbon technology forward. So at the moment I think what really is already have a have a real pathway is.
（所以我们也会努力推动主要的低碳技术前进。目前我认为已经具备真正路径的是...）
Everything around electricity. So we have renewables, which is cheaper than fossil fuel. We have storage that can electrify our transportation.
（围绕电力的一切。所以我们有比化石燃料更便宜的可再生能源。我们有可以为交通电气化的储能技术。）
And then we have new technology in the energy storage space that we can make our grid flexible so more renewable can be accommodated.
（然后我们在储能领域有了新技术，可以使我们的电网更灵活，从而容纳更多的可再生能源。）
And then? We have heat pumps that can also decarbonize a lot of our buildings in terms of cooling or district heating, so the whole electrification, renewable energy transition.
（然后呢？我们还有热泵，也可以在制冷或区域供暖方面为我们许多建筑脱碳。所以整个电气化、可再生能源转型...）
Is already there, I think we. Pretty sure that it's going to scale up. And then I guess the question is what is the second wave? So I believe the second wave is in the so called hardware oil based sectors. It's iron, steel, cement, chemicals, paper and pulp and many other aluminum, many of because.
（已经在那儿了，我想我们...相当确定它将会扩大规模。然后我想问题在于第二波浪潮是什么？所以我相信第二波浪潮在所谓的“硬件”、基于石油的行业。包括钢铁、水泥、化工、纸浆造纸以及其他许多铝业等，因为...）
These guys are beginning to have more and more options. To actually decarbonize their production five years ago, I think there are limited options, like for I still you, you probably can produce still from scrap, but I only have this much scrap available.
（这些行业开始有越来越多的选择。要在五年前真正实现生产脱碳，我认为选择有限，比如对于钢铁，你也许可以用废钢生产，但我只有这么多废钢可用。）
But today, you can use hydrogen or you can use biochar. There are more and more technology available, so what I'm really exc*ted is this next round of decarbonization technology.
（但今天，你可以使用氢气或者生物炭。有越来越多的技术可用，所以我真正兴奋的是下一轮脱碳技术。）
They are designed to be carbon neutral or net zero from the very beginning. I think by2030 many of them will be much cheaper and much more scalable so that we will see.
（它们从一开始就被设计成碳中和或净零的。我认为到2030年，其中许多技术将会便宜得多，也更具扩展性，这样我们将看到...）
Maybe the first generation or a second generation of. Low carbon technology unicorns grow out of China or anywhere in the world, and that will really give us confidence that decarbonization can be achievable.
（也许是第一代或第二代的低碳技术独角兽从中国或世界任何地方成长起来，那将真正给我们信心，让我们相信脱碳是可以实现的。）
---
I don't want to bet on any single technology, but I think that group of technology will eventually be. There. I'm also curious about it as our kind of last question as we close out here.
（我不想押注任何单一技术，但我认为那组技术最终会...实现。我也对此感到好奇，作为我们节目结束前的最后一个问题。）
What are you worried about? You know, there's this great vision for2030 all of these hopeful opportunities, but.
（您担心什么？您知道，对于2030年有这样一个伟大的愿景，所有这些充满希望的机会，但是...）
Obviously, there are potential roadblocks, potential challenges, how you're thinking or considering some of those challenges and those hurdles that are going to need to be overcome in order to realizeic so.
（显然，存在潜在的障碍和挑战，您如何思考或考虑其中的一些挑战和障碍，那些为了实现愿景而需要被克服的。）
---
The challenges we face is, number one, I think we don't really know the right answer. Right. So that's why also why I don't want to bet on any single technology, because I don't know who will be the final winner.
（我们面临的挑战是，第一，我认为我们并不真正知道正确答案。没错。所以这也是为什么我不想押注任何单一技术，因为我不知道谁会是最终赢家。）
Someone will say, okay, when we get nuclear fusion in twenty years and then we don't need all of these solutions because we get. Unlimited energy for everyone and without any mission, we just use hydrogen.
（有人会说，好吧，等我们二十年后掌握了核聚变，那我们就不需要所有这些解决方案了，因为我们将拥有无限的能源，每个人都可以用，没有任何排放问题，我们就用氢气。）
We just use nuclear fusion right? Where we have almost unlimited nuclear fusion, raw material to actually deliver the energy, but what if it doesn't?
（我们就用核聚变，对吧？我们拥有几乎无限的核聚变原材料来实际提供能源，但如果它没能实现呢？）
Or we might bet on C U or might bet on hydrogen. But what if it doesn't materialize? So I think that's the challenging part, is we don't know the right answer, but we don't have time.
（或者我们可能押注CCUS，或者押注氢气。但如果它们没有实现呢？所以我认为这具有挑战性，我们不知道正确答案，但我们没有时间了。）
To find out the right answer and then scale up that single right answer. So that's why we need to. Push all the possibility forward, which makes I guess everybody nervous. It makes makes me really nervous.
（去找到那个正确答案，然后把那个单一的正确答案扩大规模。这就是为什么我们需要...推动所有的可能性向前发展，我猜这让每个人都感到紧张。这确实让我非常紧张。）
---
I appreciate the candor, Dr howe, and thank you so much for joining me here today. I'm exc*ted for the goals that you all have set. But I think also the the vision in the world that you've painted that allows us to understand that.
（我欣赏您的坦诚，徐浩博士，非常感谢您今天来到这里。我对你们设定的目标感到兴奋。但我也认为，您所描绘的这个世界图景让我们理解到...）
It's, it's going to be a challenge, right? And that's what hard things are about. And figuring this out, we're doing something very new. And yet there's a world full of possibility, which also means that all hands are on deck and everyone's talents can be put to use here.
（这，这将是一个挑战，对吧？而这就是困难事情的特性。要解决这个问题，我们正在做一些非常新的事情。然而，这个世界充满了可能性，这也意味着需要人人出力，每个人的才能都可以在这里得到发挥。）
Everybody play our role and take action. We'll get there. Thank. You so much. Thank you. My pleasure.
（每个人都扮演自己的角色并采取行动。我们会到达彼岸的。谢谢。非常感谢您。谢谢。这是我的荣幸。）
---
That's Dr Shu how vice President of sustainable social value at Tencent.
（以上是腾讯可持续社会价值副总裁徐浩博士。）
