TED Talks Daily Book Club Embrace your limitations - Oliver Burkeman

Hey you all, happy sunday, Elise Hu here, and today we're bringing you a new episode of our very own book club series, where each month we check out new books from TED speakers that will spark your curiosity all year long. Writer and journalist Oliver Burkeman wrote a popular weekly psychology column for the guardian called this column will change your life. But years into this effort he felt no closer to knowing the secret to quote winning at life than before he started.

大家好，周日快乐！我是Elise Hu，今天我们为大家带来我们独家读书俱乐部系列的最新一期节目。每个月，我们都会推荐一些TED演讲嘉宾的新书，希望能激发大家一整年的求知欲。作家兼记者奥利弗·伯克曼曾为《卫报》撰写过一篇广受欢迎的心理学专栏文章，名为《这篇专栏文章将改变你的人生》。然而，多年之后，他仍然感觉自己离“人生制胜秘诀”的答案并没有比写作之初更近一步。

This work let Oliver down the path he's on today, including his newest book, meditation for mortals. Four weeks to embrace your limitations and make time for what counts. It's a book I recommend to just about everyone. And so I was so ex*ited for this last book club conversation of the year where I got to virtually sit down with Oliver in front of a live audience of TED members.

这项工作让奥利弗走上了今天的道路，包括他的最新著作《凡人冥想》。这本书用四周时间让你接纳自己的局限，并为真正重要的事情腾出时间。我几乎向所有人推荐这本书。因此，我非常兴奋能参加今年的最后一次读书会对话，有机会与奥利弗在线上与TED会员们进行交流。

We talked about why he now believes the best guiding philosophy of life is to embrace many of the things we've been taught to run from, our imperfections, limits and inability, to succeed at everything. And, yes, even our own mortality. Let's get into it. Enjoy.

我们探讨了他为何现在认为，人生最好的指导哲学是接受我们一直以来被教导要逃避的许多事物——我们的不完美、局限以及无法在所有事情上都取得成功的事实。是的，甚至包括我们自身的死亡。让我们深入探讨一下。祝您阅读愉快。

Oliver Burkeman, welcome to the book club. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm really, really glad to be here. Before we get into your newest book, I want to ask you a bit about your journey to this point. Your weekly column for the guardian was called This column will change your life and it covered psychology, self help, productivity and culture. In a sense, just writing the column did kind of change your own trajectory. What did you learn there that kind of got you to where you are today?

奥利弗·伯克曼，欢迎来到读书俱乐部。哦，非常感谢邀请我。我真的很高兴能来到这里。在我们开始讨论您的新书之前，我想先问问您一路走来的历程。您在《卫报》的专栏名为“这个专栏将改变你的人生”，内容涵盖心理学、自助、效率提升和文化。从某种意义上说，撰写这个专栏确实改变了您的人生轨迹。您从中学习到了什么，才成就了今天的您？

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, so yes, I spent a lot of time having to explain to people that calling a column this column will change your life was meant to be sardonic. It was meant to be tongue in cheek on some level, but it did sort of change chain mind at any rate. I don't know about anybody else's.

嗯，问得好。我的意思是，没错，我花了很多时间向别人解释，把专栏文章命名为“这篇文章会改变你的人生”其实是反讽。某种程度上，我是在开玩笑，但不管怎样，它确实改变了一些人的想法。至于其他人的想法，我就不清楚了。

And the reason is that I think for the first part of that decade or more that I was writing that column. I was very much in the mindset of at least unconsciously, you know, trying to find the system or the life philosophy or the practice that would solve all my problems that would make me feel like I was finally kind of in control of life.

原因在于，我认为在我写专栏的那十年或更长时间里，我至少在潜意识里，一直试图找到一种体系、一种人生哲学或一种实践方法，能够解决我所有的问题，让我感觉最终能够掌控自己的人生。

And, you know, if you have a different kind of job, you might get the chance to read books and explore these things every so often. But if you're doing it as your work, you get to go through so many candidate magic bullets for looking your life out that you actually eventually begin to realize like, oh, maybe the reason I haven't found this yet is now, because I just need to find the next one. Maybe there's something deeper and more interesting going on here. Maybe there's something problematic about the very idea that I should be looking for a way to solve the problem of being human. So that got me started on the journey that led to four thousand weeks and then this new book.

你知道，如果你从事的是另一种工作，你或许有机会时不时地读读书、探索一下这些东西。但如果你把这当成工作，你就会接触到无数种解决人生难题的“灵丹妙药”，最终你会意识到，哦，也许我还没找到答案的原因，是因为我需要找到下一个答案。也许这里面蕴含着更深层次、更有趣的东西。也许“我应该寻找解决人类生存问题的办法”这个想法本身就存在问题。正是这种想法开启了我的旅程，最终成就了《四千周》以及这本新书。

Yeah, there's a lot of time hacking and optimization culture, and obviously the larger sort of workaholism that we're in. When did you realize that this productivity mindset was actually making life smaller rather than larger?

是的，现在到处都是时间管理和优化文化，而且我们显然也身处一种普遍的工作狂氛围中。你是什么时候意识到这种生产力思维实际上让生活变得更狭隘而不是更充实的？

Yeah, I mean it was definitely a gradual thing. It's amazing how many of these tricks and tips you can try and have them kind of not work and still feel like, oh, just one more month or 20% more self discipline than I've ever managed to show at any other previous moment in my life and then I'll be over the hump.

是的，我的意思是，这绝对是一个循序渐进的过程。你会惊讶地发现，你尝试了那么多技巧和方法，它们似乎都不太奏效，但你仍然会觉得，哦，再坚持一个月，或者比我以往任何时候都多展现出20%的自律，我就能渡过难关了。

But I do write in 4000 weeks about how a moment that I was sitting on a park bench, in prospect park in Brooklyn where we lived at the time, on my way to my workspace and sort of more overburdened with journalistic deadlines than usual and desperately trying to fathom how I was going to use all these techniques and the rest of it to get myself through to where I needed to be by the end of the week.

我在《4000周》这本书里写到，当时我坐在布鲁克林展望公园的长椅上，正要去我的工作室，我比*时更忙于应付各种新闻截稿日期，拼命地想着该如何运用所有这些技巧和其他方法，才能在周末前完成我需要完成的工作。

And just sort of suddenly realizing, like oh none of this is ever going to work, like this is impossible. The problem here is I'm trying to do something impossible. The problem is not that I haven't found the right way to do it and there was a big shift in that moment.

然后突然间，我意识到，哦，这一切都行不通，这根本不可能。问题在于，我正在尝试做一件不可能的事。问题不在于我还没找到正确的方法，而是在那一刻，我的想法发生了巨大的转变。

So if you kind of give up on the idea of perfectionism, what happens next, how does that practically apply?

所以，如果你有点放弃完美主义的想法，接下来会发生什么，这在实践中是如何应用的？

I'm sort of making the argument, especially in the new book, that perfectionism applies to a whole lot of things, right. So wanting to be perfectly optimized as you've been talking about, wanting to be perfectly on top of everything. What is bringing us perfect work, people pleasing. I think that is also a kind of perfectionism, right? Wanting to know for sure that everybody likes you and isn't mad at you at this very moment, right?

我其实一直在论证，尤其是在我的新书中，完美主义适用于很多方面，对吧？就像你刚才说的，想要做到完美，想要事事尽在掌握。我们追求完美的工作，其实就是取悦他人。我认为这也是一种完美主义，对吧？想要确定每个人都喜欢你，此刻没有生你的气，对吧？

And so it's against that very broad definition of perfectionism, the attempt to feel in total control of what you're doing in the world, that I oppose this, bring this notion of imperfectionism which is really the just the viewpoint that says, well, what if we start from the idea that there will always be too much to do, that we will never be able to be certain, that nobody's mad at us, that we will never bring work into the world that matches up to the absolutely perfect standards in our minds and all the rest of it? What if we just sort of began from that broken place, right, that imperfect place? Is it possible that actually that could be a much better recipe for really getting the important things done and actually enjoying the process as well?

因此，我反对的正是完美主义的这种非常宽泛的定义——试图完全掌控自己在世界上所做的一切。我提出的“不完美主义”概念，实际上是一种这样一种观点：如果我们从“永远有做不完的事情”、“永远无法确定没有人会责怪我们”、“永远无法创造出符合我们心中绝对完美标准的作品”这样的想法出发呢？如果我们就从这种不完美、不破碎的状态开始呢？这是否反而是完成重要事情并享受过程的更好方法呢？

I mean it sounds a little bit like the foundations of Buddhist thought, right? Like humans have probably experienced some flavor of this problem or this conundrum for as long as we've been around. No, totally, I think it is absolutely.

我的意思是，这听起来有点像佛教思想的根基，对吧？就像人类自古以来就可能经历过某种形式的这类问题或难题。没错，完全正确，我绝对这么认为。

Firstly, just obviously this is what all I'm writing about in the new book or any of my books is a sort of synthesis of all sorts of existing wisdom traditions and religious traditions and then yes, I think it is a sort of a religious thought as well, the parallel with Buddhism may be echoing for lots of people here today, but also there's parallels with christianity and doubtless all sorts of other traditions..

首先，很显然，我在新书或我的所有著作中所写的，都是对各种现有的智慧传统和宗教传统的综合。其次，我认为它也是一种宗教思想。今天在座的许多人可能会联想到佛教，但它也与基督教以及无疑与各种其他传统有相似之处。

It's just that notion of like, well, seeing the human condition as a problem that we've got to solve seems to not be the way to make it to a life of presence and meaning and action. So it's like, can we start from the idea that we're not going to solve that problem and really live the experience instead?

问题在于，把人类的处境视为一个需要解决的问题，似乎并不能帮助我们过上充实、有意义、积极的生活。所以，我们能否从“我们无法解决这个问题”这个想法出发，转而真正地去体验生活呢？

Why is imperfectionism as you write, where the magic begins? Sort of after you kind of come to the realization like, okay, I can be free of this general quest, then what?

你为什么认为不完美主义是魔法的开始？好像当你意识到，好吧，我可以摆脱这种普遍的追求之后，接下来该做什么？

Well, firstly, like I don't think I'm anything other than a work in progress at this myself, right? So I'm certainly not coming to you from a state of perfect spiritual enlightenment and sharing my insights with you in that way. So one way to respond to this is to point out that actually there's something about trying to be in control of life to a certain extent and trying to do everything exactly right and trying to be on top of everything, that seems to squeeze out the vibrancy, the enjoyment, the juice from life.

首先，我觉得自己在这方面也还在不断学习进步，对吧？所以我当然不是以完美精神觉悟的状态来和你们分享我的见解。对此，我想指出的是，试图在某种程度上掌控生活，试图把每件事都做得尽善尽美，试图事事都做到完美，似乎反而会扼杀生活的活力、乐趣和激情。

I rely in the new book to some extent on a German theorist called Hartmut Rosa, who has written a huge amount of scholarly stuff on this idea that he calls resonance, the idea that what really gives life its meaning is this certain kind of, well, right, resonance, right? A vibration of some sort between us and the world.

我在新书中一定程度上借鉴了德国理论家哈特穆特·罗莎(德国社会学家)的观点，他撰写了大量关于他称之为“共鸣”的学术著作，他认为真正赋予生命意义的是某种特定的共鸣，对吧？是我们与世界之间某种形式的振动。

And it turns out that this is not what you get. Like, even if you succeed in, like hyper optimizing your life. Firstly, you won't actually get through all the work because it's infinite. and we can talk about that. That's a separate point. But even if you get that level of control, you sort of will wish that you didn't have it.

结果证明，你得到的并非如此。即便你成功地将生活优化到了极致，首先，你实际上也无法完成所有工作，因为工作是无穷无尽的。这一点我们可以另行讨论。这是另一个话题。但即便你获得了那种程度的掌控，你最终还是会希望自己没有拥有它。

There's a lovely quote from Alan watts, you know, the famous old spiritual entertainer from the sixties and the seventies that like, if you carried technology to its perfect conclusion and you had a machines that could do everything you wanted for you, exactly as you wanted it. What you would want in the end at the end of that process is a button that said surprise me, because that's what's not there when we really get into the driving seat of life in that way.

艾伦·沃茨（Alan Watts）有一句很精彩的名言，你知道，他是六七十年代著名的灵性娱乐家。他说，如果你把科技发展到完美阶段，拥有了可以为你做任何你想做的事情的机器，而且完全按照你的意愿来做，那么在这个过程的最后，你想要的会是一个写着“给我惊喜”的按钮，因为当我们真正以这种方式掌控生活时，惊喜就消失了。

Let's move on to that other idea, because this new book is kind of a companion or in conversation with your previous book, 4000 weeks, which is all about understanding that our time is finite. Why is understanding this the door to meaning as you write?

我们接下来谈谈另一个想法，因为这本新书可以说是你之前那本书《4000周》的姊妹篇或对话篇，那本书的主题是理解我们的时间是有限的。为什么在你看来，理解这一点是通往意义之门的途径呢？

I guess in essence because I think that we spend a lot of time, a lot of our lives doing things which, while we may not realize it, are actually kind of ways of emotionally avoiding the truth of being finite, so we put a lot of effort, whether we realize it or not, into not feeling limited both in terms of the amount of time we have and the amount of control we have over that time.

我想，本质上是因为我们花费了大量的时间，一生中大部分时间都在做一些事情，虽然我们可能没有意识到，但实际上这些事情是在情感上逃避有限的真相，所以我们投入了大量的精力，无论我们是否意识到，都是为了不感到时间有限，以及我们对时间的控制程度有限。

So yeah, a lot of the productivity techniques that you will find in the kind of productivity books that I disdain a little bit, I think are right basically offering the promise of not having to feel finite, right? It's like put this system into place.

所以，是的，很多我不太喜欢的效率书籍里介绍的效率技巧，我觉得它们本质上是对的，因为它们承诺让人不必感到时间有限，对吧？就像是建立一套系统一样。

And soon enough, probably later in the future, it's never right now. You won't have to make hard choices with your time. You won't have to feel the disappointment and the sacrifice of only ever being able to do a small proportion of the things you can imagine doing. And it's the same with control, right? If you're trying to control perfect work, it makes everything very agonizing and tortured.

而且很快，或许在不久的将来，你会发现“现在永远不是最佳时机”。你无需在时间上做出艰难抉择。你无需再承受只能做自己梦想中一小部分事情的失望和牺牲。控制也是如此，对吧？如果你试图控制完美的工作，那只会让一切都变得痛苦不堪。

When you can let in the truth of that limitation a little bit more, you undergo a shift where you're actually able to be more present in life because it's like, well okay, I don't need to spend the day beating myself up for not having found the magic way to do all the things. I don't need to be shocked and surprised that there are still hundreds and hundreds of things I have yet to get around to, because there always will be. And instead, maybe it's my job today just to pick a few of the things that matter and really pour my time and attention into them. So it's really freeing in that respect to stop fighting against the unavoidable truth, I suppose.

当你能够更坦然地接受这种局限性时，你会经历一种转变，一种能够让你更活在当下的转变。因为你会想，好吧，我不需要整天自责自己没能找到完成所有事情的灵丹妙药。我也不需要对还有成百上千件事情没做完感到震惊和惊讶，因为总会有做不完的事情。相反，也许我今天的任务就是挑选几件真正重要的事情，然后全身心地投入其中。所以，从这个意义上讲，不再与无法回避的真相抗争，确实是一种解脱。

Yeah, you mention attention and you write a lot about kind of focusing our attention, especially as it pertains to this information overload age that we're in and the attention economy, especially given the time that we're living in, the various horrors that we're witnessing or experiencing on a daily basis.

是的，你提到了注意力，你写了很多关于如何集中注意力的文章，尤其是在我们所处的这个信息过载时代和注意力经济时代，特别是考虑到我们所处的时代，我们每天都在目睹或经历各种各样的恐怖事件。

I was really struck by a moment early on in the book when you write about the danger of information overload, especially given social media, which leads us to feel this need to care about everything all at once, all the time, and you wonder whether it would be better for just a few thousand people to focus on and care about one issue deeply over the course of a lifetime, then, for hundreds and thousands of us to care about something for a few minutes after we see it come through our feeds. Why?

书中开篇不久，你就谈到了信息过载的危险，尤其是在社交媒体盛行的今天，这让我们感觉需要时刻关注所有事情。你不禁思考，与其让成百上千的人在社交媒体上看到信息后，仅仅关注几分钟，不如让几千人用一生的时间深入研究并关注某个问题，这样会不会更好？为什么？

Well, that specific thought experiment comes from a great writer blogger called David Kane. And he's sort of making the argument that, you know, you can't do very much with very diluted attention and you can do a lot. A small number of people can do a lot with more focus. But I guess the broader point that I'm trying to get at there is just this notion, there is this old idea from another era really now, that being a good citizen, being a good person means finding ways to make yourself pay more attention to the outside world and to the sufferings of the world.

这个具体的思想实验出自一位名叫大卫·凯恩的优秀作家兼博主之手。他想表达的是，注意力分散的话，你什么也做不了；而注意力集中的话，你就能做很多事。少数人如果能更专注，就能成就很多事。但我更想表达的是，现在有一种源自旧时代的观念，认为做一个好公民、做一个好人，就意味着要让自己更多地关注外部世界和世间的苦难。

And we live now, as you well know, in a world where it's information and information about awful things happening in the world is completely abundant. The scarce resources, our own attention, and the way all the social media platforms and the rest of it work is by monetizing our attention.

正如你所知，我们现在生活在一个信息爆炸的时代，而关于世界上发生的各种可怕事件的信息更是铺天盖地。我们自身的注意力这种稀缺资源，以及所有社交媒体平台和其他机构的运作方式，都是通过向我们的注意力货币化来实现的。

I think it follows from this that actually there's a duty of a citizen in the modern world to be willing to withhold attention from things as well, which is very hard for anyone who cares about the world, right? It's like what, you're telling me I should take this issue, which is obviously really serious and obviously involves a lot of people suffering and not think about it.

我认为由此可见，现代社会的公民实际上也有义务选择对某些事情不去关注，这对任何关心世界的人来说都非常困难，对吧？这就好比，你是在告诉我，我应该对这个显然非常严重、显然牵涉到很多人受苦的问题视而不见吗？

And my argument is, well, yes, firstly, because there are many ways in which our paying attention is we're misled into thinking we're making a difference, right? Attention isn't necessarily actually. I'm just right and I’m just telling the rest of a social media platform that you care is not necessarily helping anybody in the ground as it were.

我的论点是，首先，因为我们关注的很多方面都让我们误以为自己在做出贡献，对吧？关注本身并不一定意味着有效。我只是在社交媒体平台上告诉其他人你很关心，但这并不一定能真正帮助到任何人。

But also like that, willingness to say, okey, this particular world crisis, this particular humanitarian disaster, this particular aspect of the climate crisis, whatever it is, I'm not saying it's not real or that it doesn't really matter. I'm just saying that's not going to be my battle because this other thing is my battle and I'm going to put so many hours a week into volunteering or I'm going to give this proportion of my, you know, disposable income that I can afford to give to that cause. I think it's really easy to think that, yeah, more attention is always better and actually our attention is finite. And that is not the case, yeah.

但同时，我也愿意承认，对于这场特定的世界危机、这场特定的人道主义灾难、气候危机的某个特定方面，无论是什么，我并不是说它不存在或者无关紧要。我只是说，这不会是我关注的重点，因为我还有其他更重要的事情需要关注，我会每周投入大量时间做志愿者，或者把我可支配收入的一部分捐献给这项事业。我觉得人们很容易认为，关注越多越好，而实际上我们的注意力是有限的。但事实并非如此。

Zooming back out, when does acceptance of the idea that time is finite and acceptance of our limitations lead to a kind of helplessness or resignation? And I'm going to bring in one of our TED members, Kenny S here, who asks how can we discern between a healthy acceptance of our limits versus complacency or giving up on something that we really want or care about.

退一步讲，接受时间有限和自身局限的观念，何时会导致某种无助或听天由命的感觉？接下来，我要请一位TED成员，肯尼·S，来谈谈我们如何区分健康地接受自身局限，与自满懈怠或放弃我们真正想要或珍视的事物之间的区别。

Yeah, it's a great question. And I always have to sort of feel my way into it because I don't think I'm in any personal danger. My problem, I have plenty of problems, but they're very much to do with, like trying to do too many things and overreaching and then getting burned out. And I don't think I'm at a personal huge risk of sort of being like, oh, what's the point in doing anything then? But it is a real issue.

是的，这是一个很好的问题。我总是得摸着石头过河，因为我觉得自己没什么危险。我的问题，我的确有很多问题，但它们都跟试图同时做太多事情、力不从心导致精疲力竭有关。我不认为自己会面临那种“哦，那做任何事还有什么意义呢？”的巨大个人风险。但这确实是个问题。

And I mean, firstly, there's the point that many sort of teachers of mindfulness and Buddhism make many times right, which is that acceptance is not the same as resignation. It's not about saying that the way your life is or the way the world is just always has to be that way. It's about really acknowledging that it in fact is that way right now and that's a very powerful move that doesn't need to be confused with the idea of like I guess nothing's ever going to change then and I've just got to live with it.

首先，很多正念和佛教的老师都多次强调过一点，那就是接受并不等同于听天由命。接受并不是说你的生活或世界的现状就必须永远如此，而是真正地承认它现在就是这样。这是一个非常强大的举动，它不应该与“既然如此，一切都不会改变了，我只能接受”的想法混淆。

There's also this idea that I write about the new book that we tend to get caught up in an idea of what counts as a meaningful action that can have lots of sort of ironic unintended consequences, right. We tend to think that the only things that matter in the world are very big actions or actions that will resonate down the centuries or affect hundreds of thousands of people or something like that, whereas I think we all know from our lives that really very small things can be completely meaningful, right?

我在新书中也提到过一个观点，那就是我们往往会陷入一种对“有意义的行动”的固有观念中，而这种观念可能会带来许多意想不到的讽刺后果，对吧？我们往往认为，世界上唯一重要的事就是那些影响深远、能流传百世、影响成千上万人的重大事件，但我想我们都从生活中体会到，一些非常小的事情也可能意义非凡，对吧？

There's nothing not meaningful about cooking a nutritious meal for your kids, or caring for an elderly relative, or going for a hike in a beautiful landscape like these things are not going to be remembered on some level a thousand years from now, but they matter.

为孩子烹制营养餐、照顾年迈的亲戚、在美丽的风景中远足，这些事情本身并没有什么不有意义的，虽然一千年后人们可能不会记住它们，但它们很重要。

You also ask us to drop this quest for control, which is pretty prevalent in today's culture. Why do you think that impulse is so stubborn?

你还要求我们放弃这种在当今社会非常普遍的控制欲。你认为这种冲动为什么如此顽固？

I mean, it's really stubborn and it's stubborn in me, right? So I don't know that I'm even saying drop it. I think I'm saying can we all find ways to just like unclench just a little bit and any degree to which I think you can do that, even though it's scary and vulnerable to do it, is going to be beneficial.

我的意思是，它真的很顽固，而且在我身上也很顽固，对吧？所以我甚至不知道我是否在说要放弃它。我想说的是，我们能否找到一些方法，稍微放松一下，我认为无论放松到什么程度，即使这样做会让人感到害怕和脆弱，也是有益的。

We live in a culture and an economic culture that relentlessly causes us to feel it's the only way to keep our heads above water is to get more control in the western world and the global north. We come from cultures that very much prioritize technological and other control of the world and then right back at the bottom, because it always is. I think it's just the fear of death, right? We are trying to scramble into a position over life where we would feel safe at last.

我们生活在一种文化和经济文化中，这种文化和经济文化不断地让我们觉得，要想在逆境中生存下去，唯一的办法就是在西方世界和全球北方获得更多的控制权。我们来自那些极其重视技术和其他手段来控制世界的文化，但最终却总是跌落谷底。我想，这都是对死亡的恐惧，对吗？我们拼命想要掌控自己的人生，最终获得安全感。

But to be born into life is to sort of be unsafe, right? Because it's to be, it's slightly depressing material, but I think it's actually not depressing at all, right? It's like to be born as a human is just to find yourself in this vulnerable position on your way to death. I mean, that's what it is. And actually the prospect of like, well, can I scramble up onto the riverbank instead of being borne forward on it. It’s very seductive.

但生而为人，某种程度上就意味着不安全，对吧？因为这本身就有点令人沮丧，但我认为其实一点也不沮丧，对吧？就像生而为人，就意味着在通往死亡的路上，发现自己处于一种脆弱的状态。我的意思是，就是这样。而实际上，那种“我能否奋力爬上河岸，而不是被河水裹挟着向前冲”的前景，非常诱人。

For folks who haven't read the book yet and meditated on the various ideas inside it, what does unclenching as you say, what does that get us? How does it actually open up more life? How did it work for you?

对于那些尚未读过这本书并仔细思考其中各种观点的人来说，正如你所说，“放松”究竟意味着什么？它能给我们带来什么？它究竟是如何开启更广阔的生活的？它对你来说是如何起作用的？

If I can talk a little bit about the structure of the book, it was very important to me to try to sort of write the kind of book that is similar to things that have helped me and that might also continue to help me, because I definitely approach my writing in that way. So it's divided into 28 short chapters, which are then divided into four weeks, and the idea of the invitation, right, is to do one a day for 28 days.

如果我能稍微谈谈这本书的结构，对我来说，非常重要的一点是，我想写一本类似于那些曾经帮助过我、并且可能继续帮助我的事物的书，因为我写作的方式确实如此。所以，这本书分为28个短章节，每个章节又分为四周，其目的是邀请读者每天读一章，持续28天。

Given that it's all about not being such a control freak, I can't really try to force impose that on the specific way. That would be unfair, but hypocritical. But what that tries to do or what I'm trying to do there is to get over this problem with a lot of personal development writing. I think where it either gives you a great perspective shift, but then you don't know what to do with it or it gives you like a whole complicated set of tips and tricks to put into practice and you're like, okay, okay, when I get a free month, I'll finally get around to doing that and instead say, like, what if I could lead you through a small perspective shift, but repeatedly over the course of a month, such that you might live the next 24 hours a little differently than if you hadn't had that perspective shift.

既然关键在于不要那么控制欲强，我就不能强行把这个原则强加于人。那样做既不公平，也显得虚伪。但我想做的，或者说我真正想做的，是克服很多个人成长类书籍存在的一个问题。我觉得这类书籍要么能让你获得很大的视角转变，但你却不知道该如何运用；要么会给你一大堆复杂的技巧和窍门让你去实践，然后你会想，好吧好吧，等我有了免费试用期再去实践吧。而我的想法是，如果我能引导你进行一次次小的视角转变，并在一个月的时间里反复进行，让你在接下来的24小时里，生活方式与没有经历这种视角转变时有所不同，那会怎么样呢？

So there's a chapter on taking a slightly different approach to decision making. There's a chapter on slightly different approach to how you set goals for the day, or how you think about interruptions that might arise in the course of the day. And the idea is just to sort of layer these different perspective shifts. Right in the middle of life, right? You don't have to wait until you've cleared the 20,000 emails from your inbox before you put this into practice. It's like right in the middle of things.

所以，书中有一章专门讲如何用略微不同的方式做决定。还有一章讲如何用略微不同的方式设定每日目标，或者如何看待一天中可能出现的干扰。其理念就是将这些不同的视角转换层层叠加。就在生活中，对吧？你不需要等到清空收件箱里的两万封邮件之后才能开始实践。它就在你忙碌的生活中。

One of our TED members asks an important question that I wanted to bring to you, Catherine N writes, how should minorities navigate the advice to embrace imperfection instead of fighting it? Given that the price we pay, maybe in terms of rights or access, safety, finances can be considerably higher.

我们的一位TED成员提出了一个我想和大家分享的重要问题。凯瑟琳·N写道：少数族裔应该如何看待“接受不完美而不是与之对抗”的建议？考虑到我们为此付出的代价，比如权利、机会、安全、经济等方面的损失，可能要高得多。

This is a great question. I think it's really important to understand that there are at least two kinds of sort of suffering and difficulty that are encountered by humans in the world. And there's the kind that is universal and is related to being a human. And then there's the kind that is relative and societal and arises from injustice between groups of humans and power dynamics and all the rest of it.

这是一个很好的问题。我认为理解这一点非常重要：人类在世上至少会遇到两种类型的苦难和困境。一种是普遍存在的，与人性息息相关。另一种是相对的、社会性的，源于群体间的不公正、权力动态等等。

So I'm sort of unashamedly focusing on the first kind, right, which is not in any way to sort of deny or undermine the second kind, just simply, it is impossible for all of us, for any of us, no matter what background we come from, what heritage or anything else to produce work that matches up to the perfect standards we may have of it in our heads if we're perfectionists, right? I still maintain that it is that to whatever degree you feel able in your own life to edge towards acknowledging that fact, it will lead to a freer life, to better work, to more productivity of the kind that counts.

所以我毫不掩饰地把重点放在第一种情况上，对吧？这绝不是要否定或贬低第二种情况，只是说，无论我们来自怎样的背景、怎样的文化传承，或者其他任何因素，对于我们这些完美主义者来说，都不可能创作出完全符合我们心中完美标准的作品，对吧？我仍然坚持认为，无论你在生活中能够多大程度上承认这个事实，它都会带给你更自由的生活、更好的工作，以及更多真正有价值的生产力。

So it's not that it isn't harder for some people than others, and that the stakes aren't higher for some people than others. But underneath that or alongside that, there is the fact that, you know, trying to do something that is not possible for humans to do is not a recipe for a stress free and expansive existence.

所以，并非对某些人来说难度不大，也并非对某些人来说风险不高。但除此之外，还有一个事实：试图去做人类不可能做到的事情，并非通往无压力、充实人生的捷径。

A stress free and more expansive existence. You've mentioned a freer life. We've talked about resonance, which comes up a lot in meditations for mortals. What is resonance? How do we get to it without a very complicated system? In fact, this is the opposite right? It's like let go of the complicated systems.

一种无压力、更广阔的生活方式。你提到过更自由的生活。我们讨论过共鸣，这在凡人的冥想中经常出现。什么是共鸣？我们如何在不依赖复杂系统的情况下达到共鸣？事实上，这恰恰相反，对吗？这就像是放下那些复杂的系统。

Yeah, I'm not actually quite as against systems as I may sometimes suggest. The point for me is why are you using those things, right? So a good example of this in my own life, it's not a very complicated system, it's a simple system. But a good example of this is the famous pomodoro technique which many people are familiar with.

是的，我其实并不像我有时表现得那么反对各种系统。对我来说，关键在于你为什么要使用这些系统，对吧？我自己的生活中就是一个很好的例子，它并不复杂，而是一个简单的系统。但番茄工作法就是一个很好的例子，很多人都熟悉它。

The pomodoro technique is a way of dividing up your working day into 25 minute chunks with little breaks. It's a good system, right? Nothing wrong with it. The problem is if you think that that technique or any other technique is going to kind of save you, right, these days, having gone through this kind of at least something of an evolution in how I feel about these things and being much more, I think, grounded and sane about what I can do as a finite human in the course of a given day.

番茄工作法是将工作日分成若干个25分钟的小段，中间穿插一些休息时间。这套方法不错，对吧？没什么问题。问题在于，如果你认为这种方法或其他任何方法能让你免于煎熬，那么，如今，我的想法至少在某种程度上发生了转变，我对这些事情的看法也更加理性、更加脚踏实地，更清楚地认识到自己作为一个有限的人，一天之内能做的事情是什么样的。

Well, sure, then the pomodoro technique is a totally great way of organizing my day sometimes, nothing wrong with that at all, but it's no longer this, like, take it out of the human condition. I think that's really the thing that's so important for me and anything that I do in my life to bring myself back to that, absolute reality of, like here I am, these are the talents I've got the energy levels, I've got the attention, I've got the hours in the day, I've got the relationships, I'm in anything that brings me back to that. It's like the resonance was waiting all along.

当然，番茄工作法有时确实是安排一天的好方法，这完全没问题，但它不再是那种，脱离人类生存状态的方法了。我认为对我来说真正重要的，是我生活中所做的一切，都是为了让我回归到那种绝对的现实：我在这里，我拥有这些才能，我精力充沛，我注意力集中，我一天有24小时，我拥有人际关系，我参与的任何能让我回归到这种现实的事情。这就像共鸣一直都在等待着我。

So it's almost like a return to yourself, return to your emotional engine. I mean, you know, I know that I'm sort of dicing with cliche here, but it really is true that the world is full of a million small interactions every day or experiences that are potentially enchanting and absorbing ones and that at least some of us, the thing that gets in the way, the most of that is being relentlessly in pursuit of some schedule or the end of a to do list or something similar. So it's like, yeah, it's like the life is there. You don't so much need to bring it into being as to clear away the things that get in the way.

所以这几乎就像是回归自我，回归你的情感引擎。我知道，我这么说有点老套，但事实的确如此：这个世界每天都充满了无数细微的互动和体验，它们都可能令人着迷、引人入胜。而我们中的一些人，阻碍我们享受这一切的，往往是无休止地追求某种日程安排、完成待办事项清单之类的东西。所以，是的，生活就在那里。你不需要费力去创造它，而是需要清除那些阻碍你的东西。

This is related to a question from a TED community member, Alana W, who writes, many rising leaders I work with are afraid that if they focus on, quote unquote, softer things, they will lose their edge. I think there's an underlying belief that fear or anxiety in its many forms is their fuel. How has your personal definition of and relationship to ambition changed over the time you've been doing this work?

这与TED社区成员Alana W提出的问题有关。她写道：“我接触过的许多后起之秀都担心，如果他们把精力放在所谓的‘软性’事情上，就会失去优势。我认为他们内心深处有一种信念，那就是恐惧或焦虑（各种形式）是他们的动力源泉。在你从事这项工作的过程中，你对‘雄心壮志’的个人定义和态度发生了怎样的变化？”

Oh, I love that question because I think I've been in that place for sure, of thinking that, like, it's not fun to be as anxious as I am to have the knot in my stomach and all the rest of it but it seems to work right in some definition of the word worth. It's motivating on some level. Yeah, right and I think it's always been really important to me in this writing work to sort of salvage a version of ambition that goes along with it, right? That is compatible with this outlook.

哦，我喜欢这个问题，因为我肯定也经历过那种感觉，那种焦虑不安、胃里像打了个结一样的感觉确实不好受，但从某种意义上来说，它似乎也符合“价值”的定义。它在某种程度上激励着我。是啊，没错，而且我觉得在我的写作工作中，保持一种与之相符的雄心壮志一直都非常重要，对吧？这种雄心壮志与我的这种心态是相容的。

It's the difference between ambition as a kind of the sort of deficit model of ambition that says like, I've got to keep working and working harder and harder and harder and accomplishing more and more and more just to become like an adequate human being, right? This is the concept that psychologists refer to as the insecure over achiever which refers to a lot of people. You know or not enough for something, right?

这是一种缺陷型雄心，它认为我必须不停地努力工作，不断超越自我，取得越来越多的成就，才能成为一个合格的人，对吧？心理学家把这种现象称为“不安全感过强者”，很多人都属于这种情况。你知道，他们总觉得自己做得不够好，对吧？

No exactly. And whenever I use this term in public event or something like half the people in the room seem to recognize exactly what I'm talking about. This notion that you get a lot done and you achieve a lot, maybe you get a lot of accolades, but the reason you're doing it is to sort of plug a whole and you never feel good because every time you achieve something that just becomes the new minimum baseline for your subsequent achievements, right?

不完全是。每当我在公开场合或其他类似场合提到这个词时，房间里似乎有一半的人都明白我的意思。这种想法就是，你做了很多事，取得了很多成就，也许获得了许多赞誉，但你做这一切的原因只是为了填补某种空白，你永远不会感到满足，因为每次你取得一些成就，那都只是你之后取得成就的最低标准，对吧？

If you do really well at some projects, then you've got to do all the future projects just as well or better. And it's very stressful. But it is possible to see ambition in a different way, not as a way to try to feel all right, but as an expression of the fact that you know that you already are all right, that you are enough, and that once you're not tangled up so much in these kinds of self worth related struggles, actually, it's just really fun to build things and create things and do things, right? If you're an ambitious person, it's still there as you learn to let go of anxiety and control.

如果你在某些项目中表现出色，那么你必须在未来的所有项目中都做得同样好，甚至更好。这会让人压力很大。但我们可以从另一个角度看待雄心壮志，它并非一种试图让自己感觉良好的方式，而是表达了你确信自己已经足够好、足够优秀。一旦你不再深陷于这些与自我价值相关的挣扎中，你会发现，创造、建设和完成事情本身就充满乐趣，对吗？如果你是一个有雄心的人，即使你学会放下焦虑和控制欲，你的雄心依然会存在。

You also write about kind of how you're showing up for yourself now and showing up as a whole section of meditations for mortals. Why is showing up kind of the last pillar in your day to day action plan for embracing our mortality and our limitations?

你还在书中写到你现在是如何关爱自己，以及如何以冥想的形式去面对自己。为什么“关爱自己”是你日常行动计划中最后一个重要的支柱，用来探讨我们如何面对死亡和自身的局限？

I mean, I think because really it's the only point of any of this, right? It's hard to put into words, but I think most people know what we're speaking about that it is possible to sort of really be here and really be present in your life and it is possible to not be. One of the main ways I think that we end up not being is that we are sort of perpetually living for the future. Sometimes it's very obvious, right? People feel like their life, they're sort of like living until they, I don't know, settle down with a partner or have kids or till they've retired or some of those kind of milestones.

我的意思是，我觉得这才是这一切的真正意义所在，对吧？很难用语言表达，但我认为大多数人都明白我们的意思：我们可以真正活在当下，真正地活在自己的生活中，也可以选择不在当下。我认为我们最终无法活在当下的主要原因之一，就是我们总是为未来而活。有时候这一点显而易见，对吧？人们感觉自己的人生，就像是为了等到……比如说，找到伴侣安定下来，生儿育女，或者退休，或者达到某种人生里程碑而活。

But very often it's I've noticed even in myself it can be this idea of just sort of living for three hours in the future from now, this sort of perpetual state of like we're just got to get this out of the way, but of course then you're in a new moment and you know the future is still in the future. So I think the practice and the thing I'm trying to bring people back to in the book and myself, if I haven't made that clear by now, is back towards seeing that like this right here is real life.

但我注意到，很多时候，甚至我自己也会有这种想法：仿佛活在三个小时后的未来，一种永无止境的状态，好像我们必须先把这件事解决掉。但当然，你很快就会进入新的时刻，你知道未来仍然在未来。所以，我认为我在书中以及我自己身上试图引导人们回归的，如果我之前还没说清楚的话，那就是回归到对当下生活的认知。

It's as real as it's ever going to get for finite humans. If you're going to do some things that you care about and that matter to you and that make you feel alive, at some point, you're going to have to do them now. They can't always be later when you've got the other things out of the way or when you finally know what you're doing and don't feel imposter syndrome or whatever it might be. It's going to have to be in a moment of the present and I find this like a really important reminder, hopefully not a stress inducing reminder, right?

对于有限的人类来说，这就是现实。如果你想做一些你关心、对你重要、能让你感到活着的事情，那么在某个时刻，你必须现在就去做。它们不能总是等到以后，等到你处理完其他事情，或者等到你终于知道自己在做什么，不再感到冒名顶替综合症或其他什么感觉的时候。它必须在当下发生，我觉得这是一个非常重要的提醒，希望它不会让你感到压力，对吧？

The idea is not so that now you've got to be incredibly self conscious about whether you're in the moment, turns out that is a terrible way to be in the moment, right? To be constantly asking yourself if you're in the moment, but just to realize that like you've got no option if you're going to have spent some of your life doing certain things that matter to you or that you find enjoyable or that you feel make a difference, like at a certain point, it's just got to be right now, whether you feel completely ready for that or not.

这个想法并不是让你变得异常在意自己是否活在当下，事实证明，那样做其实是一种糟糕的活在当下的方式，对吧？不断地问自己是否活在当下，而是要意识到，如果你已经把生命中的一些时间花在了对你来说重要、有趣或有意义的事情上，那么在某个时刻，无论你是否感觉完全准备好了，都必须活在当下。

Meditation is in the title of the book and so as a result, a lot of people submitted questions asking you for your advice (This is a problem. We'll talk about that in a moment. So, okay, yeah.) on how to start a meditation practice. So I just want to bring this up, you know, or how to keep going. I think a lot of us have now been culturally taught to have a specific view of what meditation should or shouldn't be. And you share a bit about this throughout your book, but for those listening. What advice do you have?

这本书的书名里就提到了冥想，所以很多人向你请教（这确实是个问题，我们稍后再谈。好的，是的。）如何开始冥想练习。所以我想提一下这个问题，或者说，如何坚持下去。我觉得我们很多人现在都被文化熏陶，对冥想应该是什么、不应该是什么有了特定的看法。你在书中也谈到了一些这方面的内容，但对于正在收听的听众，你有什么建议呢？

So this is to some extent this is an artifact of the title we chose to give the book, and that's sort of me and my editor, the sort of the great figure that I'm arrogantly taking the mantle of here is less buddha and more Marcus Aurelius, right, whose meditations are a collection of short thoughts to reflect upon. (Yes.)

所以，这在某种程度上是我们为这本书选择的书名所造成的，而这其实是我和我的编辑共同决定的。我在这里自负地扮演的这位伟人，与其说是佛陀，不如说是马可·奥勒留，对吧？他的冥想录是一系列供人反思的短文。（是的。）

I am myself a pretty sort of patchy meditator when it comes to sort of a formal seated meditation practice. I think it's wonderful and it really helps me, but it's a place that I've always struggled with to some extent. That said, as you rightly know, I don't think these two senses of the word meditation are as different as one might assume at first.

就我而言，我本人在正式的静坐冥想练习方面，算是个不太熟练的冥想者。我觉得冥想很棒，也确实对我有帮助，但在这个领域，我始终在某种程度上感到力不从心。话虽如此，正如你所了解的，我认为“冥想”一词的这两种含义并没有人们最初想象的那么大的区别。

I think that any activity that causes you to sort of dis-identify from the conceptual screen, that through which you view the world, and to either look at those concepts directly or to follow your breath and to allow the concepts to be let go of as they arise, I think they can make a claim to something meditative.

我认为，任何能让你从概念的屏障（你观察世界的屏障）中脱离出来的活动，无论是直接观察这些概念，还是跟随你的呼吸，让概念在出现时自然消散，我认为都可以称之为冥想。

So if all that some of the sections in this book do is sort of unseat some kind of completely settled way of viewing things, if it's the act of a sort of a fish understanding what water is as it were, but I think that gets to count. Also there's a lot of material in the book about habits and daily habits and all the rest of it, of which meditation is one for a lot of people.

所以，如果这本书的某些章节仅仅是动摇了人们根深蒂固的观念，就像鱼儿理解水是什么一样，那么我认为这也算数。此外，书中还有很多关于习惯、日常习惯等等的内容，其中就包括冥想，这对很多人来说都是一种习惯。

And there I am really banging the drum for how much more important it is to just do 5-10 minutes of whatever the thing is today in reality instead of becoming invested in sort of very big deal, projected out in months into the future of schedules about how you're going to do it every single day forever. It's such an important skill to be able to let all of that go. And with no guarantee that it's part of some long term practice to still be able to do the thing, whether that's meditation or exercise or journaling or whatever, to still be able to do it today without the guarantee that you're becoming a different kind of person in the long term.

所以，我一直在强调，与其投入大量精力去制定未来几个月的计划，比如每天都要做某件事，不如花5到10分钟去做这件事本身，这远比投入太多重要得多。学会放下这些执念是一项非常重要的技能。即使不能保证这能成为某种长期习惯，但今天去做这件事——无论是冥想、锻炼、写日记还是其他任何事——也并不意味着你最终会变成另一个人。

Oliver, you write towards the top of your book that you're fine with listeners or readers forgetting a lot of what they read and that it's the little things that really stick with us that count. So if one of our listeners remembers only one thing from meditations for mortals, what is that one thing that you hope it will be?

奥利弗，你在书的顶部写道，你对听众或读者忘记他们读过的很多东西很满意，真正让我们印象深刻的是那些小事。所以，如果我们的听众只记得凡人冥想中的一件事，你希望它是什么？

Okay, here's what I'll say. There's a phrase towards the end of the book where I talk about the idea of starting from sanity. You can argue with the wording, but what I'm trying to say is if there is a way that you want your life to be, which in my case might be, you know, attentive and focused, calm, socially connected, making time for rest, doing my part to address the crises of the world, whatever it is, it's not going to work to see that as something that you're striving towards, right, as something that you're going to get to one day, once you've got your life in place. It has to be something that you live from.

好的，我来说说我的想法。在书的结尾部分，我提到了“从理智出发”这个概念。你可以对我的措辞有异议，但我想表达的是，如果你想要过一种生活，比如对我来说，它可能意味着专注、冷静、与人保持联系、有时间休息、尽自己的一份力去应对世界危机等等，那么把它看作是你努力追求的目标，把它看作是你人生步入正轨后才能达到的目标，是行不通的，对吧？它必须是你生活本身的一部分。

So in practical terms, you know. The example I've given before is if you know that your life needs more rest in it, it's less about resolving to take a three month sabbatical in two years time and then working really hard so that you can get them resources together to do that, and much more about asking where in your day to day there could be 5 minutes,10 minutes for genuine rest. It's that sense of like, what is the identity you want to be in the world and can you live from it a little bit today? I think that's one way of saying the one thing that I'd want people to take away, it's about doing the thing today, not about building up to doing the thing perfectly all the time in the future.

所以，从实际角度来说，你知道的。我之前举的例子是，如果你知道自己的生活需要更多休息，与其下定决心两年后休三个月的长假，然后拼命工作攒钱，不如问问自己，在日常生活中，哪里可以挤出五分钟、十分钟来真正休息。这就像是在问自己：你想成为怎样的人？今天你能稍微践行一下吗？我想，这其实就是我想让大家记住的一点：重要的是做好当下，而不是想着将来如何做到完美。

Yeah, I really like that bird by bird. Okay, this is from a TED community member, Diana GC says, I particularly like the idea of learning to face the consequences of the decisions we make, but struggle a lot to come to terms with the sacrifices that one needs to make, which leads me to decide that I can't afford to make those sacrifices. My question for Oliver, how does one practice this? How do we trust that we can face whatever comes?

是的，我真的很喜欢这种逐鸟分析的方式。好的，这是来自TED社区成员Diana GC的观点：我特别喜欢学习如何面对我们所做决定的后果，但我很难接受必须做出的牺牲，这让我觉得我负担不起这些牺牲。我想问Oliver，我们该如何实践这一点？我们如何才能相信自己能够面对一切？

So there's a quotation in the book, each of the days in the book sort of plays off a quotation from someone else. One of those is from Sheldon Kopp, the therapist and writer, who famously said you're free to do whatever you like. You need only face the consequences, which is a really empowering frame for decision making, I think. Because it reminds us that like all we're ever really doing when we face difficult decisions is choosing which set of downsides we'd like to have.

这本书里引用了一句名言，每一天的内容都巧妙地呼应了别人的名言。其中一句出自心理治疗师兼作家谢尔顿·科普之口，他曾说过一句名言：你可以自由地做任何你想做的事，你只需要承担后果。我认为这是一种非常鼓舞人心的决策方式。因为它提醒我们，当我们面临艰难抉择时，我们实际上所做的，只是选择我们想要承担哪些负面后果。

A lot of the time we sort of writhe around an indecision because we're waiting to come up with a solution that doesn't have downsides. And when you understand that for finite humans, there aren't such decisions, that anything you choose is not choosing the other things and all sorts of other ways in which everything has a downside.

很多时候，我们因为犹豫不决而纠结不已，因为我们总想着找到一个没有缺点的解决方案。但当你明白，对于能力有限的人类来说，根本不存在这样的完美选择，你做出的任何决定都意味着放弃其他选择，而且任何事情都有其弊端时，你就会明白，事情并非如此简单。

That's the perspective shift that makes the difference to me, right? It's seeing that actually, even if you don't make a decision. You are making a decision, you are moving into the next phase, hour or week or day of your life. You're using it up on indecision instead of going down one of these two paths. You're going down this other path.

对我来说，关键就在于这种视角转变，对吧？就是要明白，即使你没有做出决定，你实际上也在做决定，你正在进入人生的下一个阶段，可能是下一小时、下一周，也可能是下一天。你把时间浪费在犹豫不决上，而不是选择这两条路中的一条。你正在走向另一条路。

And again and again, I find this kind of negative message to be incredibly liberating, it's like, that ship has already sailed, right, producing perfect work, making a decision that doesn't come with downsides, finding a relationship that doesn't on some level trigger stuff from your childhood, like all off the table. And it's so great because then you can be like, all right, now let's get down to the business of actually living.

我一次又一次地发现，这种负面信息反而能带来极大的解脱感。就好像，那些事都已经过去了，对吧？比如，做出完美的作品，做出没有缺点的决定，找到一段不会在某种程度上触发童年阴影的感情，这些都已经抛诸脑后了。这感觉太棒了，因为这样你就可以想，好了，现在让我们真正开始生活吧。

Yeah, that's a lovely note to end on, Oliver, thank you so much for this really engaging and absorbing conversation. I have long wanted to speak with you and I'm so delighted that we got to spend this hour together.

是的，奥利弗，这是一个很好的结束语，非常感谢你进行了这场真正引人入胜的对话。我一直想和你谈谈，我很高兴我们能在一起度过这个小时。

Thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation. It's been great to be here.

非常感谢。我真的很喜欢这次谈话。很高兴来到这里。

That was Oliver Berkman in conversation with me Elise Hu for the TED talks daily book club. This conversation was hosted in partnership with our TED membership team.

这是奥利弗·伯克曼与我（伊莉丝·胡）在TED演讲每日读书俱乐部上的对话。本次对话由我们的TED会员团队合作举办。

00:04 介绍新书与作者背景

01:18 写作专栏的心路历程

01:46 从生产力到接纳的转变

02:55 完美主义的危害与觉醒

04:08 不完美主义的哲学基础

05:18 与佛教思想的共鸣

05: