Sunday Pick How to beat impostor syndrome - from Fixable

Hey TED talks daily listeners, I'm Elise Hugh. Today we have an episode of another podcast from the TED audio collective handpicked by us for you. Up to 80% of people experience imposter syndrome at some point in their lives or a feeling of inadequacy and anxiety about perceived flaws. I've certainly been there. So today we're sharing a recent episode from fixable where hosts Anne Morris and Francis fry break down exactly what is imposter syndrome. Why we tell ourselves stories that distort reality and how to break free from those harmful thought patterns. Whatever you're dealing with at work, fixable is here to help offering actionable insights to create meaningful change in your life and workplace. Listen to fixable wherever you get your podcasts and if you have a problem you want fixed, call their hotline at 234 fixable. That's 2343492253 to leave Ann and Frances a voicemail with your workplace problem. Learn more about the TED audio collective on audio collective dot TED dot com now on to the episode.

嗨，各位TED演讲的听众朋友们，我是Elise Hugh。今天我们为大家带来一期由TED音频团队精心挑选的播客节目。高达80%的人在人生的某个阶段都会经历冒名顶替综合症，或者感到自身能力不足，并对自身存在的缺陷感到焦虑。我本人也曾有过类似的经历。所以今天，我们分享的是Fixable播客的最新一期节目，主持人Anne Morris和Francis Fry将深入剖析冒名顶替综合症的本质，探讨我们为什么会编造扭曲现实的故事，以及如何摆脱这些有害的思维模式。无论你在工作中遇到什么问题，Fixable都能为你提供切实可行的建议，帮助你在生活和工作中做出有意义的改变。你可以在任何收听播客的平台找到Fixable，如果你有需要解决的问题，可以拨打他们的热线电话234 Fixable（即2343492253），给Ann和Frances留言，告诉他们你的工作问题。想了解更多关于TED音频团队的信息，请访问audio collective.TED.com。现在，让我们开始今天的节目吧！

You are listening to fixable a podcast from TED I'm your host Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach and I'm your Co host Frances fry. I'm a Harvard business school professor and I'm Anne's wife.

您正在收听的是ted的播客，我是您的主持人Anne Morris。我是一名公司建设者和领导力教练，也是您的联合主持人Frances fry。我是哈佛商学院的教授，我是安妮的妻子。

This is a show where we figure out how to fix things. Believing that you can fix them is a big part of getting there, which is also known as confidence. This is why we decided to focus on confidence as part of a special series this season. Last week we spoke to Dr Ian Robertson about the science behind confidence. We got so much out of that conversation and we think you will too, so definitely check it out.

这是一个我们想办法解决问题的节目。相信自己可以解决这些问题是实现目标的重要组成部分，这也被称为自信。这就是为什么我们决定将信心作为本赛季特别系列赛的一部分。上周，我们与伊恩·罗伯逊博士就信心背后的科学进行了交谈。我们从那次谈话中得到了很多，我们认为你也会，所以一定要去看看。

And we have additional great experts ahead. But we also want to hear your thoughts and your questions. So please keep calling and texting us at 234 fixable. That's 2343492253 or you can shoot us an email at fixable at TED dot com.

我们还有更多优秀的专家。但我们也想听听你的想法和问题。因此，请继续致电234 fixable给我们发短信。那是2343492253，或者你可以给我们发一封电子邮件，地址是ted.com的fixable。

Francis, today it is just the two of us and we're going to go deep on an aspect of confidence that we see trip a lot of people up, which is the phenomenon known as imposter syndrome. All right for this is how I propose we do this. I want to spend some time on what imposter syndrome is, because this is a phrase that people throw around all the time and I think it's going to help us fix it to have a better understanding of what it is. And I want to fix it because this is fixable. And then I want us to talk about some of the cousins and variants of imposter syndrome because it's going to help us spot it in ourselves and in other people. How does that sound?

弗朗西斯，今天只有我们两个人，我们要深入探讨一个让很多人信心受挫的方面，那就是所谓的“冒名顶替综合症”。好的，我建议我们这样开始。我想先花点时间解释一下什么是“冒名顶替综合症”，因为人们经常提到这个词，我认为更好地理解它有助于我们解决这个问题。我想解决这个问题，因为它是可以解决的。然后我想我们讨论一下“冒名顶替综合症”的一些衍生症状和变体，因为这将帮助我们识别自己和他人的这种症状。你觉得怎么样？

I love this frame and because it's an accurate diagnosis yields a clever prescription and we really do need an accurate diagnosis of imposter syndrome. And then we're going to have some pretty clever prescriptions, including bringing the cousins to the table.

我喜欢这个框架，因为它能准确诊断出问题所在，从而提出巧妙的方案，而我们确实需要对冒名顶替综合症进行准确诊断。然后我们就能提出一些非常巧妙的方案，包括让亲戚们也参与进来。

Yeah, that's what we're going to get into today. We're going to talk about imposter syndrome and also some of his close cousins, including the perfectionist.

是的，这就是我们今天要讨论的。我们将讨论冒名顶替综合症，以及他的一些近亲，包括完美主义者。

In addition to the perfectionist, imposter syndrome's family tree includes the soloist, the superhero and the expert. And we're going to invite all of them to this party. All right, friends, we've got a lot to do today, so let's get right into it.

除了完美主义者、冒名顶替者综合征的家谱还包括独奏者、超级英雄和专家。我们将邀请他们所有人参加这个聚会。好吧，朋友们，我们今天有很多事情要做，所以让我们直接开始吧。

Francis, just to get us started here, why is this a question that we care about? Why spend time on this one?

弗朗西斯，让我们从这里开始，为什么这是一个我们关心的问题？为什么要花时间在这件事上？

Oh, because it affects so many of us and it's fixable.

哦，因为它影响了我们很多人，而且可以解决。

Totally. I saw some data when we were prepping for this show, credible data that said up to 80% of people experience imposter syndrome at some point in their life. Does that ring true to you?

完全同意。我们在准备这个节目的时候，我看到了一些数据，一些可靠的数据，数据显示高达80%的人一生中都会经历冒名顶替综合症。你觉得这个说法有道理吗？

It does. I mean, I think most people visit it occasionally, and some people are permanent residents. And permanent residency is not free. So what's the cost of living with this?

确实如此。我的意思是，我认为大多数人偶尔会去那里，有些人是永久居民，而永久居留权不是免费。那么，用这个生活的成本是多少？

Oh my goodness. Yeah, so it's a pretty grave cost. It's like an internal game. There's loads of self doubt. It can eventually lead to burnout. It doesn't just stay on the job. It comes home with you too. So it's a twenty four, seven, three sixty five thing.

哦，我的天哪。是的，确实如此，这是一个相当巨大的代价。这就像一场内部游戏。有很多自我怀疑。它最终会导致倦怠。它不仅仅停留在工作中。它也会和你一起回家。所以这是一个二十四，七，三百六十五的事情。

Well, maybe let's pull on that thread for a second, because I find myself a little ambivalent about this word syndrome. Because it does feel like a temporary state to your point that it's one of the challenges as we build our way to confidence is that sometimes we have a crisis of confidence. Sometimes there's this impostery energy that shows up, but it's not some kind of psychological illness that defines who we are in the world.

嗯，或许我们可以就此话题再深入探讨一下，因为我对“自信危机”这个词本身有点矛盾。正如你所说，它确实感觉像是一种暂时的状态，也是我们建立自信过程中会遇到的挑战之一，那就是有时会经历自信危机。有时会有一种冒名顶替的感觉，但这并不是某种心理疾病，它并不能定义我们在世界上的存在意义。

No, indeed it isn't. I really do think a distortion field, at least that's what helps my brain understand it. We have a distorted view of reality. And I think by the end of this session today we're going to be able to help loads of people overcome their distortion field. But I think it would help to go back to the origin of the word. So it was more than 50 years ago that two amazing psychologists, pauline clant and Suzanne inez, they wrote a paper called the impostor phenomenon in high achieving women. And that later got shortened to the catchy imposter syndrome. So these two women found it. They didn't call it the title.

不，确实不是。我真的认为存在一种扭曲场，至少我的大脑是这样理解的。我们对现实的认知是扭曲的。我认为在今天的课程结束时，我们将能够帮助很多人克服他们的扭曲场。但我认为追溯这个词的起源会很有帮助。50多年前，两位杰出的心理学家，宝琳·克兰特和苏珊娜·伊内兹，发表了一篇题为《高成就女性的冒名顶替现象》的论文。后来，这个标题被简化为朗朗上口的“冒名顶替综合症”。这两位女性发现了这个问题，但她们并没有给它起这个名字。

Yeah, well, they didn't call it the clance inez. Syndrome, right, which we're going to later see is, was much more common at the time to name it after people. Instead they just identified the thing and then people started referring to the thing in a catchy way. So I think that that's the first thing is that this has been around for more than 50 years. It started with women in academia who were really high achieving, but they thought they weren't.

是的，她们当时并没有把它叫做“克兰斯·伊内兹综合征”（Clance Inez Syndrome），对吧？我们稍后会看到，当时用人名来命名这种疾病要普遍得多。她们只是描述了这种疾病，然后人们开始用一种朗朗上口的方式来称呼它。所以我认为，首先，这种疾病已经存在超过50年了。它起源于学术界一些成就斐然的女性，但她们却觉得自己并不优秀。

Yeah, the original paper that this pair of psychologists wrote in the seventies was the imposter phenomenon in high achieving women. And to your point, they talked to more than 100 kick ass academics, all female, and they noticed that there was, I like your word distortion, there was this cognitive distortion that was a thread in the internal experience of these women.

是的，这两位心理学家在七十年代发表的论文最初探讨的是高成就女性的冒名顶替现象。正如你所说，她们采访了100多位杰出的女学者，并注意到，正如你所说，存在一种认知扭曲，这种扭曲贯穿于这些女性的内心体验之中。

And I think there's also good data around the fact that it can and does happen to anyone. It is more common women. It's more common among people who are bringing difference into the workplace. Access in room full of why's you're more likely to see these kinds of questions. Should I be here? Do I deserve to be here? Are people going to find out that I shouldn't essentially.

而且我认为也有充分的数据表明，这种情况可能发生在任何人身上，而且确实会发生。女性更容易遇到这种情况。那些在职场中展现独特视角的人也更容易遇到这种情况。在一个充满“为什么”的房间里，你更有可能听到这类问题：我应该在这里吗？我配得上在这里吗？人们会不会发现我其实不应该在这里？

Yeah, if you're in the majority or in the center of power, well, you can have imposter syndrome probabilistically you're less likely to than if you're the less powerful or the more underrepresented.

是的，如果你身处多数群体或权力中心，那么你患上冒名顶替综合症的概率会比那些权力较小或代表性不足的人要低。

Yeah, I do think these experiences are most clearly understood as distortions. And what's a distortion? It's a story we're telling ourselves about what's happening that diverges from reality. All right, so let's break it down.

是的，我确实认为这些经历最清楚地被理解为扭曲。什么是扭曲？这是一个我们告诉自己的故事，关于正在发生的与现实不同的事情，对吧，所以让我们把它分解一下。

Yeah, so I find that the first step that's helpful is to know that we are not the only distortion field in town. And that there is another distortion field, which is actually quite a bit more vibrant than ours. And that is where we overestimate our abilities vis a vis reality. So if we're under-appreciating ourselves, there's another syndrome, another distortion that's over-appreciating themselves. It did not get a catchy name. This one was first identified in 1999 by two academics and they called it after themselves. So they were probably not experiencing impostors and they were not.

是的，所以我觉得最有帮助的第一步是要知道，我们并非唯一的扭曲场。实际上还有另一个扭曲场，而且它比我们的要活跃得多。我们正是在那里高估了自己的能力。所以，如果我们低估了自己，就会出现另一种综合症，另一种扭曲，那就是高估自己。它没有一个朗朗上口的名字。这个现象最早是由两位学者在1999年发现的，他们用自己的名字命名了它。所以他们当时可能并没有遇到冒名顶替者，事实也的确如此。

We don't know for sure, but I don't think so. And so in the landmark paper that introduced it, they also named it the dunning kruueger effect after each of their last names.

我们不确定，但我不这么认为。因此，在介绍它的具有里程碑意义的论文中，他们也在每个姓氏之后将其命名为邓宁-克鲁格效应。

So that's the opposite cognitive distortion. It's, I'm overestimating my abilities in some way. Why do you find this so helpful when you are working with people on imposter syndrome when we talk about this alternative reality?

所以，这就是另一种认知扭曲，即我高估了自己的能力。为什么当你和患有冒名顶替综合症的人谈论这种另类现实时，你觉得它如此有用呢？

Yeah, because one is, first of all, we all know people who are suffering the dunning kruueger effect. They're in every meeting we're in and I want people to realize as your unconsciously choosing to underestimate there are other people that are unconsciously choosing to overestimate. Wouldn't it be better if we all chose to estimate accurately? And so sometimes it's easier to see the opposite in someone else or be like, wow, I'd like you to dial it back. Well, you know what? wow, I'd like you to dial it up.

是的，首先，我们都认识一些深受邓宁-克鲁格效应影响的人。他们几乎出现在我们参加的每一次会议中。我希望大家意识到，当你无意识地选择低估时，也有其他人无意识地选择高估。如果我们都能选择准确估算，岂不是更好？所以，有时候我们更容易看到别人的反面，或者说：“哇，我希望你别那么夸张。” 但你知道吗？哇，我希望你更夸张一些。

Got it. And so we see that it's actually a choice, that it is actually a distortion when we kind of look at it through the mirror or whatever the right metaphor is here.

明白了。所以我们看到，这实际上是一种选择，当我们通过镜子或任何正确的比喻来看待它时，这实际上就是一种扭曲。

And I think I like to say unconscious choice because I'm not sure that people are deliberately choosing to do it. But after this session you'll be deliberately choosing to continue doing it when we give you some alternatives.

我想我喜欢说无意识的选择，因为我不确定人们是故意选择这样做的。但在这次会议之后，当我们给你一些替代方案时，你会故意选择继续这样做。

Okay, well, let's focus on the 80% if that's the we're with the 80, we're going to care about the 80% of us who've experienced imposter syndrome. How do I know if I am subject to this distortion field.

好吧，既然我们和这80%的人在一起，那我们就把重点放在这80%的人身上，我们要关心的是那些经历过冒名顶替综合症的人。我怎么知道自己是否也受到了这种扭曲力场的影响呢？

Good question. I not sure we can recognize it in ourselves accurately. But if you think you have imposter syndrome, you probably do. That's first number one, but any time there's any self diagnosis, go to people who know you and love you and ask them. And you don't even have to use the word imposter syndrome. You can use the clinical definition in the sea of distortions, do you get the sense that I am overestimating my accomplishments, underestimating or I'm just right on target and see where people come out? I believe we are revealing it a lot more than to everyone else, but perhaps not to ourselves.

问得好。我不确定我们能否准确地识别出自己是否患有冒名顶替综合症。但如果你觉得自己有这种感觉，那很可能就是真的。这是最重要的一点，但任何时候进行自我诊断，都应该去找那些了解你、爱你的人问问他们。你甚至不必直接说“冒名顶替综合症”这个词。你可以用临床定义来理解这种感觉，比如，你是否觉得自己高估了自己的成就、低估了自己的成就，或者说，我的评价恰到好处？看看别人会怎么评价。我相信，我们往往对别人更容易意识到这一点，但或许我们对自己却意识不到。

So let's talk to the 80% of people who have experienced this at some point in their lives. How do I know if I am distorting my reality in this way? What are some clues that I might be, yeah, experiencing the symptoms of imposter syndrome.

那么，让我们来和那80%都经历过这种情况的人聊聊。我怎么知道自己是否在以这种方式扭曲现实？有哪些迹象表明我可能正在经历冒名顶替综合症的症状？

I love this question because I almost never think about it. People come to me with a self diagnosis of imposter syndrome and I helped them overcome it. So I'm not sure that I've ever helped anyone diagnosis it. But that's what you do with your coaching. So let me ask you, yeah,

我喜欢这个问题，因为我几乎从不去想它。人们来找我，对冒名顶替综合征进行自我诊断，我帮助他们克服了它。所以我不确定我是否曾经帮助过任何人诊断过它。但这就是你的指导。所以让我问你。

I mean I think you know it. The clues are in the definition. So if you are regularly experiencing self doubt, if there's a storyline that pops into your head in the form of anxiety about being found out if you are attributing your success, you know entirely to factors with that are outside of your control. I think these are, these are clues that you might be subject to this kind of a distortion field. That resonates because when people have self diagnosis and they come and talk to me, they do indeed use that language.

我的意思是，我想你明白我的意思。线索就在定义里。所以，如果你经常自我怀疑，如果你的脑海中总是浮现出一个故事，比如担心别人发现你把成功完全归功于那些你无法控制的因素，那么我认为这些都是线索，表明你可能受到了某种扭曲力场的影响。这一点之所以能引起共鸣，是因为当人们进行自我诊断并来找我谈话时，他们确实会使用类似的语言。

Okay, after the break, Francis, we're going to get into this. We're going to move on to strategies on how you fix imposter syndrome and I love the fixable part of any conversation.

好吧，休息后，弗朗西斯，我们来谈谈这个。我们将继续讨论如何修复冒名顶替综合症的策略，我喜欢任何对话中可修复的部分。

Okay, I am anxious to fix this. So let's get into the things that you have seen work for people to break out of this false reality essentially.

好吧，我急于解决这个问题。所以让我们来谈谈你所看到的人们从根本上摆脱这种虚假现实的方法。

So I'll give one really practical technique to begin with, which is, when we acknowledge that we are not seeing reality accurately, what we want to do is get an accurate portrayal of reality that we believe in.

所以，我先给出一个非常实用的技巧，那就是，当我们承认自己没有准确地看到现实时，我们想要做的就是得到一个我们所相信的、准确的现实描述。

Right. So what I want to do is substitute the mind games that are going on inside my head to distort things with an accounting of what's really going on so that I can at any point in time choose to visit the mind gains in my head or go look at the accurate record. The cool thing about this is that we can keep an accurate record even though we are also subject to distortion fields. This blew my mind when we figured it out.

没错。所以我想做的，是用真实情况的记录来取代我脑海中那些扭曲事实的心理游戏，这样我就可以随时选择是查看脑海中的臆想，还是查看准确的记录。最棒的是，即使我们也会受到各种干扰因素的影响，我们仍然可以保持准确的记录。当我们发现这一点时，我简直震惊了。

The heart of my question is how do we get over the fact that we're not reliable narrators when we're in this state because we're not talking about an accurate record. Like what? What is the thing?

我的问题核心在于，在这种情况下，我们该如何克服自己作为叙述者不可靠的事实，因为我们谈论的并非准确的记录。比如，到底是什么问题？究竟是什么问题？

So the way to get an accurate record, even we distorters can give an accurate record if we do it in the moment. So I want us to create a record in the moment about how things are going. And what we have found is that we're pretty darn accurate. That is the objective performance. And our subjective assessment are quite close to each other in the moment. It's only when the distance of time that we start feeling like we're frauds and the other things that you said. So what I recommend is let's have a technique, a template that we fill out in a regular basis that's easy to access in the moment.

所以，要想获得准确的记录，即使是我们这些容易弄虚作假的人，只要及时记录，也能做到准确。因此，我希望我们能及时记录事情的进展情况。我们发现，我们的记录相当准确。这就是客观表现。而且，我们当时的主观评估也相当接近。只有随着时间的推移，我们才会开始觉得自己像个骗子，就像你刚才说的那些。所以我建议，我们应该采用一种技巧，一个模板，定期填写，并且方便随时查阅。

So, for example. Let's say that I wanted to solve imposter syndrome in a week. I could imagine having a record each day on whatever performance metrics matter to me, and I'm going to give myself grades real time on those performance metrics. Maybe once a day, maybe once in the afternoon, once in the morning, maybe once an hour. And I'm going to give myself an assessment. It's turn out going to be very close to accurate if I do that for five days. By the end of a week, imposter syndrome can creep in, that is, if you just, without my record, if you just ask me, I could have all of that syndrome. But if you let me open the book and say, what does the book say? Well now there's no syndrome.

举个例子。假设我想在一周内克服冒名顶替综合症。我可以想象每天记录对我来说重要的各项绩效指标，并实时给自己打分。也许一天一次，也许下午一次，早上一次，也许每小时一次。然后我会给自己做个评估。如果我坚持五天，结果会非常接近准确。但到了一周结束时，冒名顶替综合症可能会悄悄出现，也就是说，如果没有我的记录，如果你只是问我，我可能就会有这种症状。但如果你让我翻开记录，问问自己：记录是怎么说的？那么现在，这种综合症就消失了。

So let me just use an example. So I'm in a typical office and I feel this creep in often in a meetings setting for example and so I'm just going to grade myself on my contribution to meetings for an entire week. That's an example of what we're talking about and I'm great quality of contribution in the meeting and so the meeting ends and I just jot this down in a notebook and then your point is and I want to describe in detail because I've seen you work with people and it blows my mind that it works right. It blows your mind that this simple technique works and it really does. So I really want to give people just like really fight your chess.

让我举个例子。假设我在一个典型的办公室里，我经常在开会的时候感到这种情绪悄悄滋生。所以我决定给自己打分，记录我一周以来在会议上的贡献。这就是我们刚才讨论的一个例子。我在会议上的贡献质量很高，会议结束后，我把这些都记在笔记本上。我想详细解释一下，因为我亲眼见过你和别人一起做这件事，它真的有效，这让我很惊讶。这个简单的技巧真的有效，这真的让人难以置信。所以我真的想告诉大家，要像下棋一样，勇敢地面对这种心态。

What you are saying is one of the reason it works is because if you ask me at the end of the week how did you do on contributions to meaning. You're going to say terrible, you know, because I cannot be trusted, right? I'm subject to this syndrome. But in real time for like if we're fast enough, we can outrun it.

你说的正是它奏效的原因之一：如果你在周末问我，你对意义的贡献如何，你会说糟透了，你知道，因为我不可信，对吧？我也会受到这种影响。但如果我们反应够快，就能实时摆脱它。

In fact, you'll have instead of one data point that you're inferior. You're going to actually have 40 data points. That's going to show. Now, I don't know if you were good in meetings or not, but if you were, they'll be disproportionately good. And if you were bad in meetings, they'll be disproportionately bad. What I can say is they'll be accurate. Whereas your weekly assessment is going to be inaccurate.

事实上，你不会只得到一个显示你表现不佳的数据点，而是会有40个数据点。这将会清晰地展现出来。我不知道你开会表现如何，但如果你表现好，这些数据点会格外突出；如果你表现差，这些数据点也会格外突出。我可以肯定的是，这些数据点会非常准确。而你每周的评估结果则会不准确。

Got it. You're really solving for the distortion part of cognitive distortion. Okay, let's replace the story here with some actual data. And start to pull our minds out of this. And what was an amazing finding for us is we used to go through such laborious processes to get the data and we found that even the distortionists could accurately collect data if they did it in the moment. And that has just made this like a DIY project now, like, we can get over imposter syndrome on our own.

明白了。你实际上是在解决认知扭曲中的扭曲部分。好的，让我们用一些实际数据来代替这个故事，然后开始摆脱这种思维模式。我们发现一个惊人的事实：过去我们为了获取数据需要经历非常繁琐的过程，但现在我们发现，即使是那些喜欢扭曲事实的人，如果当时就进行操作，也能准确地收集数据。这让一切都变得像一个DIY项目一样简单，我们可以自己克服冒名顶替综合症。

Do you recommend like an accountability partner here? Should I be scoring this with someone else? Can I be useful?

你建议在这里做一个问责伙伴吗？我应该和别人一起得分吗？我能有用吗？

I think if you find yourself to be a more accurate scorer with someone else, do it. But it's got to be in the moment so don't violate this in the moment to get a really good companion. Got it. So you could imagine two people that, you know, are both subject to the distortion. And you're in a lot of similar meetings, you'd be pretty good buddies.

我觉得如果你发现和别人一起评分更准确，那就这么做。但关键在于把握当下，所以不要为了找个好搭档而违背当下的原则。明白了。你可以想象一下，两个人都会受到这种认知偏差的影响，而且你们经常参加类似的会议，那你们就会成为很好的朋友。

Yeah. All right, so you can’t find a friend. Yeah, just don't violate the, don't let the time elapse because nothing can save us for the distortion field then. Right. Okay, so you can’t phone a friend here is what you're saying. I'd like you to be sitting next to them already, but yes. Got it. And you want no time. I really don't because you want every moment to keep close. Yeah, and I get that every moment I hear that your time is not your friend. And the more time you spend in this distortion field where you're constantly questioning yourself, the more likely you are to believe that you're actually an imposter. Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome? I don't think so.

是啊。好吧，所以你找不到朋友。是啊，别违反规则，别让时间流逝，因为一旦时间流逝，就没人能救我们脱离扭曲力场了。对。好吧，所以你的意思是，你现在不能给朋友打电话。我希望你现在就坐在他们旁边，但是，是的。明白了。你不想有时间。我真的不想，因为你想每时每刻都和他们待在一起。是啊，我明白，每次听到你说你的时间不是你的朋友，我都觉得很遗憾。你在这个扭曲力场里待的时间越长，你就越有可能相信自己其实是个冒牌货。你经历过冒名顶替综合症吗？我想没有。

Yeah, I think you're in the 20%. Yeah, I think you're in the 20%. This creeps up on me like all the time without realizing it, like little pieces of it. No, in fact, the syndrome like float into my cognitive field. I feel like you're part of this kind of rare 20%. Why not? You're like a female academic. You're in this high risk category. Yeah, like this is rampant in academia, yeah.

是啊，我觉得你就在那20%里。是啊，我觉得你就在那20%里。这种感觉总是悄悄地袭来，我都没意识到，就像一点一点地积累起来。不，实际上，这种感觉就像飘进了我的认知世界。我觉得你也是这罕见的20%中的一员。为什么不呢？你是一位女性学者。你属于高风险人群。是啊，这种现象在学术界很普遍。

So well the first one is, if you ask me which one am I likely to experience dunning kruueger imposter syndrome. It's dunning kruueger. Let's be honest and you know my like picking a gender camp, go one or the other. I don't get to pick but I'm not. It's, you know, if the ladies all experience it doesn't mean I always experience it. Let's be, let's be honest, these categories are fuzzy. Yeah, yeah, they're very fuzzy. So, but I do think that in my distortion field, the longer away I am from something, I tend to put more of a halo on it. So I do think I have a dunning if I think I'm very objective. But I do.

嗯，第一个问题是，如果你问我哪个更可能经历邓宁-克鲁格综合征或冒名顶替综合症，我会说是邓宁-克鲁格综合征。说实话，你知道我喜欢在性别阵营里选边站，非此即彼。我没得选，但我就是没得选。你知道，就算所有女性都经历过，也不代表我也会经历。说实话，这些分类很模糊。是啊，确实很模糊。所以，我的认知扭曲力场里，我离某件事越远，就越倾向于给它加上一层光环。所以，如果我自认为很客观的话，我确实觉得自己有邓宁-克鲁格综合征。确实如此。

With distance, it just gets better. It's like how I interpret silence as applause. Other people interpret silence as concern. Right. So here are the categories. I have seen work and I'm wondering if they resonate with you. So one is this whole category. We've talked about this before in the show, creating some healthy distance from that inner critic.

距离越远，情况就越好。就像我把沉默解读为掌声，而其他人则把沉默解读为担忧。没错。所以，这里列出了几个类别。我看过一些作品，想知道它们是否能引起你的共鸣。其中一个类别是整个系列。我们之前在节目中讨论过，要与内心的批评家保持一定的健康距离。

Like I love dick Schwartz's work on internal family systems. I find it so liberating. It's really fun. Let's name the critic, let's invite them into the meeting. Let's kick them out, let's talk them down. Let's get them out of the driver's seat. I find the metaphor just wonderful, delightful, and it feels very actionable to me. One of the problems with the word syndrome is it suggests this kind of very black and white, like you're in it or you're not in it. Sometimes this voice pops up and starts yelling at me. Sometimes it's quieter, sometimes I listen, sometimes I don't like it is a much. It's a much more fluid, much more variable, much kind of grayer situation than the word syndrome.

我非常喜欢迪克·施瓦茨关于家庭内部系统的研究。我觉得它非常具有解放意义，也很有趣。我们不妨指出批评者的名字，邀请他们参与讨论，然后把他们赶出去，让他们闭嘴，让他们不再主导一切。我觉得这个比喻非常精彩，令人愉悦，而且感觉很有实践意义。“综合症”这个词的问题之一在于它暗示了一种非黑即白的二元对立，仿佛你身处其中，或者你不在其中。有时，这个声音会突然冒出来，对我大喊大叫。有时它比较安静，有时我会倾听，有时我又不太喜欢它。这比“综合症”这个词所描述的情况要复杂得多，也更加多变，更加灰色地带。

Suggest and figuring out what my relationship is to that voice and realizing that I have a relationship to that voice, that this is not necessarily, you know, my highest and best self that is yapping. In these moments, I find that a very empowering way to relate to this experience.

建议并弄清楚我与那个声音的关系，并意识到我与那个声音确实存在某种联系，但这并不意味着喋喋不休的是我最高尚、最好的自己。在这些时刻，我发现这是一种非常有益的方式来应对这种经历。

Yeah, what I would say to that is that your solution is the solution for people that live an examined life. My solution is for everyone else. All right? So I'm let me give you two more categories. I look forward to it. One, I think is resetting your relationship with failure. So this is maybe less examined life and more Carol Dweck growth mindset. How do we treat setbacks as opportunities to learn instead of the opposite data exercise that you described which is data that I shouldn't be in this room, I shouldn't be in this job. I don't deserve to be here, which is kind of the default data exercise we're doing and then when something goes wrong or when I screw up as I inevitably do, then it gets filtered through my brain as see I told you so you didn't deserve this position.

是的，我想说的是，你的方案是为那些喜欢反思生活的人准备的，而我的方案是为其他人准备的。好吗？那么，我再补充两点。我很期待。第一点，我认为是重新审视你与失败的关系。这或许更多地体现了卡罗尔·德韦克的成长型思维，而不是反思生活。我们应该把挫折看作是学习的机会，而不是像你描述的那样，把挫折当作一种“我不该出现在这里，我不该做这份工作，我不配待在这里”的默认思维模式。这种默认思维模式导致当事情出错，或者我犯错时（而我不可避免地会犯错），我的大脑就会自动过滤掉这些错误，然后告诉我“看吧，我早就说过，你不配这个职位”。

So I do think our how we respond to failure, even small f failure in the meeting, I didn't use the right words, you know, just whatever the small f failure is. I do think if we do it with curiosity about how I might do it better next time versus judgment. Oh my gosh, I didn't achieve. I bet the judgy, version of us like widens the imposter syndrome. It makes the distortion field wider.

所以，我认为我们应该如何应对失败，哪怕是会议上那种小小的失败——我刚才没用对词，你知道，就是那种小小的失败——如果我们带着好奇心去思考下次如何才能做得更好，而不是带着评判的眼光去想“天哪，我没做好”，那会很有帮助。我敢肯定，那种评判式的自我认知会加剧冒名顶替综合症，让认知扭曲的范围更广。

Yeah. And I think this is where I experience you and I on being on the other side of this like line, if this is a spectrum. I'll way it two by two and you got a 45 degree angle dotted line. We got the whole graphic.

是的。我觉得这就是我感受到你我处于这条线另一侧的地方，如果这是一个光谱的话。我把它两两并排摆放，你会看到一条45度角的虚线。我们已经得到了完整的图形。

But something you know, a meeting won't go well or I'm aware of a mistake in a meeting and it will hit me harder than you like. It would never occur to you that it was because you were not supposed to be in that meeting. It would be such an absurd conclusion because I can accurately tell if it's a pebble or a boulder and you will sometimes mistake pebbles for boulders.

但你知道，如果某个会议进行得不顺利，或者我意识到会议中出现了错误，那对我来说打击会比你想象的要大得多。你永远不会想到这是因为你不该参加那个会议。这简直是荒谬至极，因为我能准确分辨鹅卵石和巨石，而你却常常把鹅卵石误认为巨石。

100%. I think it's also I love our dear colleagues, Amy Edmonson’s work and her recent book, the right kind of wrong. I think, you know, directionally most people have an unhealthy relationship with failure and mistakes. And so I think this book was such a gift and such a public servant. And one of the things I love is that she complicated, you know, there are different kinds of mistakes, but we bring the same emotional reaction to even the good mistakes, even the great mistakes that teach us things about ourselves, that are on the path to innovation. You know, we need to be out there making a lot of good mistakes in order to make progress as a species. But we have such an aversion to failure that we are getting in our own way.

百分之百。我觉得这也要归功于我亲爱的同事艾米·埃德蒙森（Amy Edmonson）的作品，以及她最近出版的《正确的错误》（The Right Kind of Error）。我认为，你知道，大多数人对失败和错误的态度都不健康。所以我认为这本书是一份珍贵的礼物，也是对公众的一份贡献。我喜欢的一点是，她把错误复杂化了，你知道，错误有很多种，但我们对即使是好的错误，甚至是那些能让我们了解自己、引领我们走向创新的伟大错误，都会有同样的反应。你知道，为了人类的进步，我们需要不断犯错，不断尝试。但我们对失败的厌恶却阻碍了我们前进的步伐。

Yeah, she's the perfect messenger for the two dimensionality of there's like success and failure and you can shoot happy face, frowny face. She's like, no, no, there are some types of failure that are at least as good as success. Yeah. It's mind blowing and true. And once you accept that sound effect right there, that was Frances's mind being blowing. And once you that you're like, oh my gosh, well, I want to get to those as quickly as possible. Yeah, it's a really cool book. We recommend it to everyone. 没错，她完美地诠释了那种非黑即白的二元论：成功和失败，你可以用笑脸或哭脸来表达。她却说，不，不，有些失败至少和成功一样好。没错，这真是令人震惊，而且是真的。一旦你接受了刚才那个音效，你就会明白，那就是弗朗西丝的思维被震撼到了。一旦你接受了，你就会想，我的天哪，我真想尽快读到这些。没错，这是一本非常棒的书。我们向所有人推荐。

Yeah, okay. Francis, let's say I'm leading a team and I observe someone on my team who is kind of subject to these kinds of thoughts and storylines. Is there anything I can do as a leader or manager to be helpful to that person?

好吧。弗朗西斯，假设我正在领导一个团队，我观察到团队中有人受到这种想法和故事情节的影响。作为领导者或管理者，我能做些什么来帮助那个人吗？

So here's a classic example of that. In the classroom at HBS, when students first arrive on campus and they were high achievers before they got to campus, they all initially judged themselves with did I get the right answer that we came up with at the end of class? But that is not the metric you should use for the people that opened the class. We still got 80 minutes to travel. Yeah, open for class. It's did I get everyone else to want to engage in it in a productive way? Not that I get the right answer. In fact, probabilistically if you got the right answer, we're not teaching that case next year. Yeah, so that's not a good class.

这里有个经典的例子。在哈佛商学院的课堂上，学生们刚入学时，他们都是成绩优异的学生，他们最初评判自己的标准是：我是否得到了我们最终得出的正确答案？但这并不是衡量那些打开课堂的人的标准。我们还有80分钟的路程。没错，打开课堂。关键在于：我是否让其他同学都愿意积极参与课堂？而不是我是否得到了正确答案。事实上，从概率上讲，如果你得到了正确答案，我们明年就不会再教这个案例了。所以，这样的课并不好。

So you have to judge yourself based on the time of doing it. But when people arrive on campus, they just think that I get the right answer or not, and don't control for how long we are into the discussion.

所以你必须根据做这件事的时间来判断自己。但是当人们来到校园时，他们只是认为我得到了正确的答案，而不控制我们讨论了多久。

Yeah, like when you and when you have, I think, worked with me on this without maybe even realizing it or labeling it imposter syndrome, you know what I have appreciated is you are always solving for, let's look clearly at the situation. let's reach an accurate conclusion. So when you find me in my feelings and kind of open to this conversation, you're not coming to say don't, you know, you're not coming to take care of me necessarily or protect me from those feelings or tell me that I shouldn't be feeling things or that everything's great, just giving you like a snapshot of reality.

是的，就像你曾经和我一起探讨过这个问题，也许你甚至都没意识到，或者没有把它定义为冒名顶替综合症。你知道，我欣赏的一点是，你总是会冷静地分析情况，得出准确的结论。所以，当我情绪低落，愿意和我谈谈的时候，你并不是来安慰我，也不是来保护我，让我免受这些情绪的困扰，或者告诉我我不应该有这些感受，或者一切都很好，你只是让我看到现实的一面。

But so let's talk about reality and you like, I know you're feeling bad and there may be a reason to feel bad, but let's look at the column of, like, where we made progress, where we stumbled, what we could learn, and when I see leaders really creating environments where people like me kind of get over are these self distracting thoughts and contribute more fully, they are creating a true learning environment that includes a real healthy relationship with setbacks, which is not that, oh, you're never going to make a mistake, but what when you make a mistake, what did we learn? Can we make that learning infectious? Our job here is to be better tomorrow than we are today. You know, it is building that kind of culture where I think we really set people up for success on this one.

但我们还是来谈谈现实吧。我知道你现在感觉很糟糕，而且这种感觉或许有其原因。但我们不妨看看，比如，我们在哪些方面取得了进步，在哪些方面遇到了挫折，以及我们可以从中吸取哪些教训。当我看到领导者真正营造出一种环境，让像我这样的人能够克服那些自我干扰的想法，并更充分地贡献力量时，他们就创造了一个真正的学习环境，其中包含着一种与挫折之间健康的互动关系。这并不是说，哦，你永远不会犯错，而是当你犯错时，我们从中吸取了什么教训？我们能否让这种学习精神感染他人？我们的工作就是明天比今天做得更好。你知道，正是这种文化的构建，我认为才能真正帮助人们在这方面取得成功。

And what I notice when I interact with you because you do sometimes have this distortion field after some meetings and I never know what's going to trigger it. It's not the volume of good and bad. It's something triggered the distortion field for you. And I don't totally know what gets that bi*ch out on your seat, you know? And maybe we should start paying attention so we can see it in the moment. I don't know either, because I'm always surprised. When I'm gonna say that again for my mother so you don't have to use bad language. I don't know what gets that inner critic out of her seat. I don't know. I don't either.

我注意到，当你和我互动时，你有时会在开完会后出现一种情绪扭曲的状态，我永远不知道是什么触发了它。这跟好坏的数量无关，而是某些事情触发了你的情绪扭曲。我完全不知道是什么让你内心那个“批评家”跳出来，你知道吗？也许我们应该开始注意观察，这样才能及时察觉。我也不知道，因为我总是感到惊讶。我再说一遍，为了避免你用粗俗的语言，我替我妈再说一遍。我不知道是什么让你内心那个批评家跳出来。我不知道。我也不知道。

It's always a surprise to me. It's always a surprise. But if what I do with you, which is a very high performing person with a wildly high probability of success but with occasional pebbles in the way but you distort pebbles to boulders. I don't do anything to distort pebbles from being pebbles. Like I don't pretend they're don't exist. Yeah, I talk about them as the pebbles and I talk about all of the accelerants that happened, and then you get an accurate report card and then you let go of it. So I think it's important that we don't distort reality to handle it. We just show reality. That's all people with imposter syndrome need is an accurate view of reality.

这对我来说总是很意外。总是很意外。但如果我对待你的方式是，你是一个能力很强、成功概率极高的人，但偶尔也会遇到一些小障碍，而你却把这些小障碍夸大成巨石。我不会刻意掩盖这些小障碍，我不会假装它们不存在。我会把它们当作小障碍来讨论，也会讨论所有导致你失败的因素，然后你会得到一份准确的报告，之后你就可以放下它了。所以我认为，重要的是我们不要为了应对这种情况而扭曲现实。我们只是呈现现实。所有患有冒名顶替综合症的人需要的，就是一个准确的现实视角。

Welcome back. We have defined imposter syndrome. We have figured out how to fix it, and we are going to set ourselves up to spot it more precisely, in ourselves and other people. So we're going to do this by meeting the cousins, the variants of imposter syndrome. This is some of Dr Valerie Young's terrific work and Francis, I want to just one by one here. So start us off with the perfectionist.

欢迎回来。我们已经定义了冒名顶替综合症，也找到了应对方法，现在我们将学习如何更精准地识别自己和他人的这种综合症。为此，我们将了解冒名顶替综合症的各种变体。这是瓦莱丽·杨博士的杰出研究成果，弗朗西斯，我想在这里逐一介绍。首先，我们来谈谈完美主义者。

Yeah, I think the most prominent cousin of imposter syndrome is the perfectionist. And that now could be common. Yeah, super common, and could be someone who has imposter syndrome or someone else but that you're going to observe it in, but it's the perfectionist and the perfectionist, if I can summarize it in the crispest way possible. The perfectionist thinks there are two states of nature. Flawless or failure?

是的，我认为冒名顶替综合症最显著的“表亲”就是完美主义者。而且现在这种情况可能很普遍。没错，非常普遍，可能是患有冒名顶替综合症的人，也可能是其他人，但你会在他们身上观察到这种现象。如果我能用最简洁的方式概括的话，那就是完美主义者。完美主义者认为自然界只有两种状态：完美无瑕或彻底失败。

Yes. Yep, what a debilitating way to go through the world. Yeah, its own distortion field. And right now I'm going to be like, oh my gosh, there are all these distortions. Now, wouldn't we like to sprinkle magic dust on the person who thinks there are two states in the world, flawless or failure and make that evaporate. Because flaw like the quest for flawless, is going to take all day and you're going to get nothing else done. You're unlikely to achieve it, but for sure you're unlikely to accomplish anything else.

没错。是啊，这种生活方式真是让人精疲力竭。是啊，它本身就形成了一个扭曲力场。我现在肯定会想，我的天哪，到处都是扭曲的现实。我们难道不想给那些认为世界只有两种状态——完美或失败——的人撒上魔法粉，让他们的这种想法消失吗？因为追求完美就像追求缺陷一样，会耗费你一整天的时间，让你什么都做不了。你不太可能达到完美，但肯定也不太可能完成任何其他事情。

What I think people get wrong about perfectionism is it is more about escape from failure, then pursuit of the perfect. Because it presents as pursuit of the perfect but the cognitive distortion is that mistakes and failure are going to reveal that I don't belong here, right? It's that mistakes are so costly that I'm going to avoid them. Use all of my energy to avoid them, cover them up, keep other people from them. Pretend that gravity doesn't apply to me.

我认为人们对完美主义的误解在于，它更多的是一种逃避失败的方式，而非追求完美。因为它表面上看起来是在追求完美，但其认知偏差在于：错误和失败会暴露出我不属于这里，对吗？错误代价如此高昂，以至于我要竭尽全力去避免它们。我会用尽所有精力去逃避、掩盖它们，不让别人看到它们。我会假装重力对我不起作用。

Yeah I love the it's an escape from failure because that's indeed what it is. If you think there are two states to the world, flawless or failure, you're going to try to be flawless so that you are not a failure by any means necessary. And almost always it's way too laborious. And so you will, as a perfectionist, accomplish so much less in the world than other people that are unburdened by that binary and see it much more as a continuum and realize that worrying about which font you selected for the paper that you submitted isn’t going to matter but you could spend a month.

是的，我喜欢“逃避失败”这种说法，因为它本质上就是这样。如果你认为世界只有两种状态：完美或失败，你就会不惜一切代价追求完美，以免失败。而这几乎总是太费力了。因此，作为一个完美主义者，你在世界上的成就远不如那些不受这种二元对立束缚的人，他们把世界看作一个连续的过程，意识到纠结于你为提交的论文选择了哪种字体其实无关紧要，但你可能会为此花费一个月的时间。

But one could spend a month thinking about that and you know what everyone else they are competing on bad fonts. And that is a black and white world that I will live in and die on. Okay, well while people who are inefficiently doing that, you know what the rest of us are doing, inventing fire. No, I know and getting feedback. I can get a phenomenon back to our women in academia. This is a phenomenon that you have observed from the beginning of your career that this perfectionist instinct would lead women academics so much longer to take, so much longer in writing the paper. Meanwhile, the men were putting stuff out there, getting feedback co-producing better results and really learning. And the women were denying themselves that opportunity.

但你可以花一个月的时间思考这个问题，而你知道吗，其他人都在用糟糕的字体竞争。这是一个非黑即白的世界，我会在这个世界里生活，也会为之奋斗终生。好吧，当那些效率低下的人做着这些事的时候，你知道我们其他人都在做什么吗？我们在发明创造。不，我知道，我们也在不断获得反馈。我可以把这个现象和我们学术界的女性联系起来。你从职业生涯之初就观察到这种现象：这种完美主义的本能导致女性学者在撰写论文上花费更多的时间。与此同时，男性学者们却在不断发表作品，获得反馈，共同创造更好的成果，并真正地学习。而女性学者却在剥夺自己获得这种机会的权利。

Which leads us to the second cousin. And the second cousin is the soloist. And so in the example you just had, the women are doing it alone in their quest for perfection. And the men are not going it alone in their quest for good enough, in their quest for this is a publishable paper.

这就引出了远房表亲。远房表亲是独奏者。所以，在你刚才的例子中，女性在追求完美的过程中是独自一人。而男性在追求“足够好”的过程中并非孤*奋战，他们追求的是一篇可以发表的论文。

And the flawed story here is I cannot ask for help. Asking for help is a sign of weakness. It again, it will reveal that I don't belong here.

这里有缺陷的故事是，我不能寻求帮助。寻求帮助是软弱的表现。这再次表明，我不属于这里。

And so to your escapist thing, that's exactly right. I'm escaping the weakness associated with help, which is, I don't even want to call that a distortion. It's just baldly incorrect. I don't know a single person of great accomplishment that got it without help, not a single one, so you know, in fact, the pattern is even stronger that the people we see like continuously rise in organizations are, they truly excel at asking for help. Shameless and creating ecosystems that could help and just think about it, you alone are going to compete against me and all the people I can galvanize to help me. What is the probability you have of winning? I'm going to round it off to zero. So the problem with the soloist is that you will have such a mediocre ceiling that you can achieve in the world. And that's so sad because you had all of the raw materials to get there.

所以，你说的逃避现实这一点，完全正确。我是在逃避与寻求帮助相关的弱点，我甚至不想称之为扭曲，这简直就是彻头彻尾的错误。我认识的成就卓著的人，没有一个是靠别人帮助取得的，一个也没有。所以你知道，事实上，这种模式更加明显，我们看到那些在组织中不断晋升的人，他们非常擅长寻求帮助。他们毫不羞愧地创建能够提供帮助的生态系统。想想看，你一个人就要和我以及所有我能动员起来帮助我的人竞争。你获胜的概率是多少？我估计是零。所以，单打独斗的问题在于，你在世界上的成就上限非常有限。这很可惜，因为你本来拥有所有成功的要素。

And this comes at a huge cost to organizations because people, in addition to people not being so far away from the frontier of what they can contribute, problems just don't get escalated at the right time. And learning it doesn't become infectious. In fact, if I said to you, would you rather have a team of soloists or a team of team players? Give me a more mediocre team than a bunch of fantastic soloists. All right? Tell us about the superhero.

这对组织来说代价巨大，因为人们不仅没有充分发挥自身潜力，问题也无法及时上报。而且，这种学习成果也无法传播开来。事实上，如果我问你，你更想要一支独行侠团队还是一支团队合作者团队？我宁愿要一支平庸的团队，也不要一群才华横溢的独行侠。明白吗？说说超级英雄吧。

This is one where it's the person has the mistaken impression that what they're bringing to the table is effort. And so by hook or by crook, they have to work harder than everyone else. So this is the person who secretly goes to the gym. This is the person who secretly stays late. This is the person who in secret, exhausts themselves doing all of these, putting in all of this extra time. Again, I think probably as a soloist when they're doing it, but they're putting in the extra hours as if there is a participation trophy. And once you get out of little league, there are no more participation trophies. But the superhero is acting like there is a participation trophy and that if I work harder, I win. And it's just not true.

这种情况指的是，这个人误以为自己付出的只是努力。所以，他们不择手段地比所有人都更努力。这些人会偷偷去健身房，偷偷加班，偷偷地让自己筋疲力尽，投入大量额外时间。我想，他们可能独自一人这样做，但他们投入额外时间，就好像在争取参与奖一样。一旦你离开了少儿联赛，就没有参与奖了。但这些“超级英雄”却表现得好像真的有参与奖，好像只要我更努力就能赢。但这根本不是事实。

Yeah, the lie here, I mean, I love the kind of, what's the lie in all these. I like that frame. Me too. Yeah. The lie here is that in order to prove my value, I have to go above and beyond constantly. The individual cost is kind self evident maybe. We've talked a lot about burnout in the show and at the group level. I think when this becomes normalized, obviously those costs, the costs of burnout and risks of all these stuff go up. But there's also this phenomenon of exhausted mediocrity. There's no strategic prioritization. There's no sense of this task is more important than this other. It's all like we're just gonna out effort. We're gonna out all the time on all of the things.

是啊，这里面的谎言，我的意思是，我喜欢这种“这一切的谎言是什么”的思考方式。我喜欢这种框架。我也是。没错。这里的谎言在于，为了证明我的价值，我必须不断地付出超乎寻常的努力。个人的代价或许显而易见。我们在节目中以及团队层面都多次讨论过倦怠的问题。我认为，当这种情况成为常态时，显然，倦怠的代价以及所有这些风险都会增加。但同时，也存在着一种疲惫不堪的平庸现象。没有战略性的优先级排序。没有意识到这项任务比其他任务更重要。一切都像是我们只会竭尽全力。我们会在所有事情上都付出一切。

Yeah and this try harder mentality. You're not going to win against anyone of consequence and they're going to have a better life because if you want to think great ideas, you have to be well rested and well nourished and well exercised. Well, the person who's competing on effort, they have let those things go long ago. So I would say that it's the superhero thinks the only way they can compete is with the participation trophy of effort. And I have yet to meet a person for whom that's actually true. And the tragedy is they're covering up the really good stuff in the panic to get the thing that they think matters and it doesn't.

是啊，还有这种“更加努力”的心态。你永远赢不了任何真正有影响力的人，他们的生活会更好，因为如果你想产生伟大的想法，你必须休息充足、营养均衡、经常锻炼。而那些靠努力来竞争的人，早就放弃了这些。所以我觉得，这种“超级英雄”认为他们唯一能竞争的方式就是靠努力这个“参与奖”。但我还没见过哪个人是真的这么想的。可悲的是，他们为了得到他们认为重要的东西（其实并不重要），反而掩盖了自己真正优秀的一面。

Yeah, we hear that from so many leaders that, oh, I got here by working harder. For sure, you worked hard. First of all, no you didn't. There's always people that are working harder than you. Always. But that's not your true superpower. And that's not your superpower. I want you to get here by being in peak condition. Yeah, I mean, what do we know about the old one? Yeah, they never win, they never win. All right.

是啊，我们听太多领导人说，哦，我是靠更努力才走到今天的。当然，你的确很努力。首先，不，你并没有。总有人比你更努力。总是如此。但这并不是你真正的超能力。那不是你的超能力。我希望你凭借最佳状态走到今天。是啊，我的意思是，我们对那些老家伙了解多少？是啊，他们从来没赢过，他们从来没赢过。好吧。

Close us out with the expert. So expert. Yeah, so I think expert is a sibling of the superhero on this part, which is instead of working harder, this is the person that is going to compete by having more knowledge on the topic than anyone else. So they're the encyclopedia in the room. Yeah, they're just going to have more details, more knowledge, more accessible stuff, as opposed to more judgment, more creativity. They're going to have more of the hard knowledge.

最后，我们来谈谈专家。专家嘛，我觉得专家和超级英雄有点像，他们不是靠努力工作取胜，而是靠比任何人都更渊博的知识来竞争。他们就像房间里的百科全书。没错，他