The case for spending more time with your friends - Rhaina Cohen
You're listening to ted talks daily where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, elise h as the holiday season continues around the world, many of us find ourselves thinking about family and loved ones.
（您正在收听TED Talks Daily，我们每天为您带来激发好奇的新想法。我是主持人Elise H。随着全球假日季的到来，许多人开始思考家庭与所爱之人。）
And yet the most meaningful relationships in our lives aren't biological or romantic. In this eye opening conversation, journalist and author rhaina Cohen sits down with ted's Whitney pennington Rogers to explore why close platonic bonds chosen family, as some call it, deserve intention, commitment, even public recognition.
（然而，我们生命中最有意义的关系并非血缘或浪漫关系。在这段发人深省的对话中，记者兼作家Rhaina Cohen与TED的Whitney Pennington Rogers坐下来探讨：为什么亲密的柏拉图式纽带——有人称之为“选择的家人”——值得我们有意识的投入、承诺，甚至公共认可。）
And she illuminates the path to deep and lasting friendships in today's world.
（她还为如何在当今世界建立深厚而持久的友谊指明了道路。）
---
For a lot of us, this is a moment when questions a family come into sharper focus. Who do we gather with? Who supports us, who do we choose and who chooses us?
（对我们许多人来说，此刻正是关于“家庭”的问题变得格外清晰的时候。我们与谁相聚？谁支持我们？我们选择谁，谁又选择了我们？）
And for some of us, those answers might feel wonderfully clear, but for others there might be a tenderness around this or a sense that your answers aren't quite what tradition tells you they should be and that's why our guest today feels especially essential.
（对一些人来说，这些答案可能非常明确；但对另一些人而言，这可能带来一种脆弱感，或是觉得自己的答案与传统期待不符。这正是今天我们这位嘉宾显得格外重要的原因。）
Right now she's a journalist and author of the other significant others, and last year she delivered a ted talk that pushed us to expand who we count as our people and to recognize the deep sustaining connections that don't always fit neatly onto holiday cards or family trees but can shape our lives in very profound ways.
（她是一位记者，也是《The Other Significant Others》一书的作者。去年，她在TED演讲中推动我们扩展“谁是我们重要的人”的定义，去认识那些虽不一定能整齐地写在节日贺卡或家谱上、却能深刻塑造我们生活的深厚而持久的关系。）
I'm so grateful she's here to help us reflect on belonging, connection and relationships that can carry us into this season and well beyond it. Please give a welcome to rena Cohen.
（非常感谢她今天来到这里，帮助我们反思归属感、联结与关系——这些能支撑我们度过这个季节乃至更远时光的东西。请大家欢迎Rhaina Cohen。）
---
What a nice intro. Thanks Whitney.
（很好的介绍。谢谢Whitney。）
Well, I think just maybe to kick things off your your talk. The talk that you delivered on the ted stage is sort of a distillation of the big idea from your book, the other significant others, that essentially argues for a more expansive approach to friendship and the role it can play for all of us.
（好的，也许我们可以从你的演讲开始。你在TED舞台上的演讲大致提炼了你书中的核心观点——《The Other Significant Others》，它本质上主张一种更广义的友谊观，以及友谊对我们所有人可能扮演的角色。）
And to pull a quote from the book, you say if if we don't limit friendship it can be central to our lives. So for those of us who aren't familiar as a primer, I think for our conversation, what do you, what do you mean by this? How are we limiting friendship and how could we think about it more fully?
（引用书中的一句话，你说：“如果我们不限制友谊，它就能成为我们生活的中心。”那么，为了让不熟悉的听众有个基础了解，对于我们的对话来说，你这是什么意思？我们如何限制了友谊？又如何能更全面地思考它？）
---
I think we limit friendship by thinking it can do less than it actually can.1 of the ways that feels really clear is by looking across time and across places and seeing what friendship looked like in those times and places and it was different.
（我认为我们限制友谊的方式，是认为它能做的比实际能做的要少。一种非常明显的方式是纵观历史和不同地域，看看友谊在那些时代和地方是什么样子——它与现在不同。）
For one thing, I think the expectation now is that friendship is going to be a relationship that's private, it's just between you and someone else, or maybe it's a small group of people and it is a a nice addition to your life. Life but it is not an essential part of your life. It's something that you can you know maybe ah put on the back burner and that was just not true.
（首先，我认为现在的期望是，友谊将是一种私密关系，只存在于你和另一个人之间，或者可能是一个小群体，它是你生活的美好补充，但并非必不可少。它是你可以……也许……暂时搁置一边的东西，但过去并非如此。）
And in many other places I mean you you can see that there were rituals that were built around recognizing friendship of potentially for the rest of your life there. An example of this ritual is called sworn brotherhood. Um, and it was recognized as as something that people would ah would witness like that that commitment.
（在许多其他地方，你可以看到存在一些围绕承认友谊（甚至是终身友谊）而建立的仪式。其中一个仪式例子叫做“结拜兄弟”。嗯，它被认为是一种人们会见证的……那种承诺。）
We don't think about friendship as involving commitment, let alone a commitment that you are going to formalize in front of other people. So I think even the idea of commitment is something that would surprise a lot of people.
（我们不认为友谊包含承诺，更不用说是一种你要在他人面前正式确立的承诺。所以我认为，仅仅是“承诺”这个概念就会让很多人感到惊讶。）
And then I think the kinds of feelings that we think are possible to experience and friendship are also kind of limited that we hold out romantic relationships as the relationship where you can experience excitement and. Infatuation, um, and the, you know, ah, the sort of fluttertery feelings that actually friends can experience.
（其次，我认为我们认为可以在友谊中体验到的那种情感也相当有限。我们把浪漫关系当作可以体验兴奋、迷恋、嗯，以及那种……你知道的……心动的感觉的关系，而实际上朋友之间也能体验到这些。）
I can, you know can talk about my own experience with this. It's partly what what LED me to write the book. Um, but again if you look across different times0 places you will see that kind of affection where friends would talk about loving each other. And that's that was obvious that you would love your friends.
（我可以……可以谈谈我自己的经历。这在一定程度上引导我写了这本书。嗯，但同样，如果你纵观不同时代和地域，你会看到那种朋友之间谈论彼此相爱的深情。而且，爱你的朋友本是显而易见的事。）
And I think especially you know we're talking about certain subsets of society. It's not that common to talk in that language of love or to snuggle up to your friend without that being a question of, you know are you romantically involved.
（而且我认为，特别是在我们谈论社会的某些群体时。用那种爱的语言交谈，或者依偎在朋友身边而不引发“你们是不是有浪漫关系”的疑问，并不那么常见。）
So I think between the idea that friendship is private, that it doesn't, it should be easy, it shouldn't necessarily involve commitment and that there are there's kind of a cap on how intense the emotional experience might be. All of those are ways that we, I think, underestimate what friendship can, can be and do for our lives.
（所以我认为，无论是认为友谊是私密的、应该轻松的、不一定包含承诺，还是认为情感体验的强度存在上限——所有这些方式，我认为，都低估了友谊可以成为什么样子，以及能为我们的生活做些什么。）
---
And you, you mentioned just now that you have sort of a personal connection to this. Can you tell us a little bit more about why you wrote the book000 then ultimately gave the talk.
（你刚才提到你个人与此有些关联。你能多告诉我们一点吗？你为什么写了这本书，最终又做了这个演讲。）
So I found myself in a friendship that really broke the definition of friendship that I thought was, you know, what it was supposed to be. And this happened in my early20 s and I ended up meeting a friend who it turned out like five minutes, a five minute walk away from me.
（是这样的，我发现自己经历了一段友谊，它真正打破了我对友谊的定义，即我认为友谊“应该”是什么样子。这发生在我二十岁出头的时候，我遇到了一位朋友，结果发现她住得离我只有五分钟，步行五分钟的路程。）
And we became much more intertwined in each other's lives than I had. I had experienced maybe something somewhat comparable a couple of times, but we found ourselves struggling with even the language of best friend that that felt inadequate, that something more like partners maybe fit.
（我们的生活在彼此之中交织的程度，比我之前经历的要深得多。我也许经历过几次有点类似的情况，但我们发现，甚至连“最好的朋友”这个说法都感觉不够用，“伴侣”之类的词可能更合适。）
And I found myself thinking about other people that I had known at different points in my life who had these really intense, devoted friendships that didn't. Kind of couldn't be captured with the term friend or a best friend.
（我发现自己开始思考我生命中不同阶段认识的那些人，他们拥有非常紧密、忠诚的友谊，这些友谊无法……有点无法用“朋友”或“最好的朋友”这样的词来概括。）
And then I looked to history, some of what I was just talking about before and realized that we have a really specific idea about what friendship is now. And I wanted to find people today who have these kinds of friendships.
（然后我回顾历史，包括我刚才谈到的一些内容，意识到我们对现在的友谊有一种非常特定的观念。我想找到当今拥有这类友谊的人。）
And essentially over the course of those interviews I realized that this wasn't just a project to lift up and help people recognize that there were these extremely close friendships that I called platonic partnerships, but that because they they challenged the definition of friendship by blending together kinds of elements of partnership and platonic friendships.
（基本上，在这些采访过程中，我意识到这不仅仅是一个项目，旨在推崇并帮助人们认识到存在这些我称之为“柏拉图式伴侣关系”的极其亲密的友谊，还因为它们通过融合伴侣关系和柏拉图式友谊的各种元素，挑战了友谊的定义。）
But they ended up asking all these bigger questions about how do we, you know, know that a, that a romantic relationships is romantic? Why are romantic relationships held up higher than friendships by default? Like how do we define what family is? How does the state define what an important relationship is? So basically like it started from this personal place, but all these.
（但它们最终引发了所有这些更大的问题：比如，我们如何知道一段浪漫关系是浪漫的？为什么浪漫关系默认就比友谊地位更高？我们如何定义家庭？国家如何定义一种重要的关系？所以基本上，它始于这个个人经历，但所有这些问题都随之而来。）
Bigger questions came up for me that I wanted to tackle in a book0 I think it's really important to note that this this isn't an argument against romantic relationships. You're not suggesting that you have either or right?
（这些更大的问题在我脑海中浮现，我想在书中探讨。我认为非常重要的是要指出，这并不是反对浪漫关系。你不是在暗示必须二选一，对吧？）
No, absolutely not. I mean I I I try to be really careful in and in a number of ways to say that it's not either or I think um that would be kind of using the same logic that I am trying to push against the idea that there's one right way to live.
（不，绝对不是。我的意思是，我尽力以多种方式非常谨慎地表明，这不是非此即彼。我认为，嗯，那会有点使用同样的逻辑，而我正试图反对“只有一种正确生活方式”的观念。）
And I think currently the message we get is that the right way to live is to find a romantic partner, maybe have kids, um, you know, to not be alone and I don't want to say that there's that, that's that one right way is wrong. But I have found the other one right way.
（而且我认为，目前我们得到的信息是：正确的生活方式是找到一个浪漫伴侣，也许生孩子，嗯，你知道，为了不孤单。我并不是说那种，那种唯一正确的方式是错的。但我发现了另一种正确的方式。）
I think the the bigger point is that there are a variety of ways to live deeply meaningful lives and that building your life around a friendship or many friendships or some other kind of combo of things, um, can be really important.
（我认为更重要的观点是，有各种各样的方式可以过上非常有意义的生活，围绕一份友谊或多份友谊，或其他某种事物组合来构建你的生活，嗯，可以非常重要。）
Important and in fact there are people who I profile in the book who have both a romantic partner and this really close friendship and I explore the ways that those those different types of relationships can actually complement each other. Like it can make a romantic relationship stronger to have a really close friendship like this in your life.
（事实上，我在书中描述的一些人，他们既有浪漫伴侣，又有这种非常亲密的友谊。我探讨了这些不同类型的关系实际上如何能相互补充。比如，生活中拥有这样一份非常亲密的友谊，可以让浪漫关系更牢固。）
So I definitely don't see it as either or hearing all of the things that you've researched and all the people you've encountered. It's, it's, it feels like you have just sort of this treasure trove of learnings and how you can think about friendship as sort of a primary, maybe even foundational relationship.
（所以我绝对不认为这是非此即彼的。听了你所有的研究和遇到的所有人，感觉你就像拥有一个学习的宝库，关于如何将友谊视为一种主要的、甚至是基础性的关系。）
And I'm curious to hear what you've learned about what can become possible for people when we do remove the limits from friendship and how it can function0 how have you seen people's lives improve as a result of doing this?
（我很好奇，当你确实消除了对友谊的限制时，你了解到人们的生活可能发生哪些变化？友谊如何能发挥作用？你看到人们的生活因此得到了怎样的改善？）
---
A really big lesson I got, um, interviewing many dozens of people was that life takes you by surprise and if you. Only have one way that you are told is possible to live, live your life and to be happy. It's just not that resilient to all of the things that can come up, which range from wanting a romantic partner and not being able to find one to.
（我得到的一个非常大的教训，嗯，采访了几十个人之后，就是生活充满意外，如果你……只有一种被告知可能的生活方式，以此来生活和获得幸福。那么面对所有可能出现的情况——从想要浪漫伴侣却找不到，到……）
Having a romantic partner and splitting up to having a kid with serious disabilities, um, I mean there's sort of any number of things that I saw people struggle with and what made them be able to move into a life that felt really full to them was being open to the possibility that a friend could, could be there, could be the backstop when things went wrong.
（拥有浪漫伴侣却分手，到生下有严重残疾的孩子，嗯，我的意思是，我看到了人们与各种各样的事情作斗争。而让他们能够进入一种让他们感到非常充实的生活的关键，是对朋友的可能性持开放态度——朋友可以出现，可以在事情出错时成为后盾。）
Um, you know one, I mean I write about women, a woman who was dying of ovarian cancer and her friend was really her primary caretaker. Um, and you know her husband was not kind of in the position to help, especially with the kids.
（嗯，你知道，比如我写到的女性，一位死于卵巢癌的女性，她的朋友实际上是她的主要照顾者。嗯，你知道她的丈夫不太能帮忙，尤其是照顾孩子方面。）
It's like having a wider safety net when whether it's something that's acute or is just like your life didn't quite fit on the train tracks you expected. It's just this, this great way to, um, to still find a lot of meaning and even.
（这就像拥有一个更广泛的安全网，无论是应对急事，还是仅仅因为你的生活没有完全按你预期的轨道发展。这只是一个，一个很好的方式，嗯，去仍然找到许多意义，甚至……）
For people whose lives don't take a turn that maybe they wouldn't have chosen really benefit from having deep friendships because they it means that they have more than one. Person in their life who can unlock a different side of them.
（对于那些生活没有发生他们可能不会选择的转折的人来说，拥有深厚的友谊确实有益，因为这意味着他们生活中不止一个人可以激发出他们不同的一面。）
I mean I think about one of my friends who I'm just constantly laughing around and I'd had her and another friend like hang out and I realized that one of my friends who brings out this really contemplative side of me and probably never seen me laugh as much I as I had then.
（我的意思是，我想起我的一位朋友，和她在一起我总是笑个不停。有一次我和她以及另一位朋友一起玩，我意识到，那位朋友能引出我沉思的一面，而她可能从未见过我像那时笑得那么多。）
So I think also being open to the idea that you're going to have, um, more than one really significant relationship in your life means that you have people who help you kind of figure out the like Fuller, well rounded version of yourself.
（所以我认为，对“你生命中将会拥有不止一份真正重要的关系”这个想法持开放态度，也意味着你有一些人帮助你塑造更完整、更全面的自我。）
---
You know, I think there's been so much written these days about the challenges adults face in maintaining strong relationships or kind of relationships across different life events. You know, whether that's relocation or marriage or children0 I personally know that I've experienced some of these challenges as I've gotten older.
（你知道，我觉得最近有很多文章写成年人在维持牢固关系或跨越不同人生事件的关系方面面临的挑战。无论是搬迁、结婚还是孩子，我个人也知道，随着年龄增长，我经历过其中一些挑战。）
What do you see as some of the biggest barriers to developing these types of relationships0 how do you recommend people overcome them?
（你认为发展这类关系的最大障碍有哪些？你建议人们如何克服它们？）
---
Well, one way to answer that is to think about what are the ingredients of a thriving friendship or thrive. I mean individual friendships and this probably also applies to community. And a researcher I talked to from the university of Utah said that the three magic ingredients of she was talking about attachment.
（嗯，回答这个问题的一种方式是思考，一份蓬勃发展的友谊需要哪些要素。我指的是个体间的友谊，这可能也适用于社区。我采访过一位犹他大学的研究人员，她说三个神奇要素——她当时谈论的是依恋关系。）
So like any kind of close relationship were time, togetherness and touch. So if we work backwards from there, it's like how, um, how much time are we able to spend with other people? Well, if we live far from our friends or potential friends, if the priority we have is having a house that, you know, we can keep to ourselves or there are problems with affordability, for instance, when we're trying to to figure out where to live, that's going to reduce the amount of time we have.
（所以，任何亲密关系都需要时间、共处和接触。如果我们从这三要素倒推，问题就变成了：我们有多少时间能与他人共度？如果我们住得离朋友或潜在朋友很远，如果我们的首要目标是拥有一个……你知道的……我们可以独享的房子，或者存在负担能力问题，例如当我们试图决定住在哪里时，这都会减少我们拥有的时间。）
Same thing for if we're working all the time, um, togetherness is also about like. Just sharing life together and if the way that we are maybe inclined to spend time together because this is what's normal is to like go get coffee or do an activity0 not just let people into our everyday lives because that would be, you know, like going and doing errands, for instance, because that would be boring or not appropriate.
（同样，如果我们总是工作，嗯……“共处”也关乎……只是共同分享生活。如果我们倾向于在一起的方式，因为这是常态，是去喝咖啡或做个活动，而不是让人们进入我们的日常生活，因为那会是……比如一起去办事，因为这可能无聊或不合适。）
That also can be a barrier.0 as well as if you think you're supposed to be kind of doing any activity of significance with your with a romantic partner as opposed to a friend, that can can be difficult for friendship.
（这也可能是一个障碍。同样，如果你认为任何有意义的活动都应该与浪漫伴侣而非朋友一起做，那也会对友谊造成困难。）
And then the third thing would be is is touch. You know there's certainly norms that we have around how close you can get to your friends. Um, as I mentioned before, I think um, straight men really bear the brunt of this that this is why you see the side hugs and as opposed to like a full on hug or I, you know see hand handshakes or one, um, one man I interviewed said that his, his father won't even sit next to him right next to him on the couch.
（然后第三点是接触。你知道我们当然有关于可以与朋友亲近到何种程度的规范。嗯，就像我之前提到的，我认为，嗯，直男在这方面首当其冲，这就是为什么你会看到侧身拥抱，而不是完全的拥抱，或者，你知道，握手。嗯，我采访过的一位男士说，他的父亲甚至不会紧挨着他坐在沙发上。）
He has to leave space and all of his friends would do the same before he sort of had this other friendship. Um, so I think the the kind of those sorts of barriers around touch norms of touch can also get in the way.
（必须留出空间，他所有的朋友在他拥有那种特别的友谊之前也是如此。嗯，所以我认为，围绕接触规范的那些障碍也会妨碍友谊。）
And there there are plenty of other things too that I think get at. The idea that friendship is supposed to be easy, um, that we shouldn't, you know, be inconvenienced or inconvenience others, that those are a few of the, I think the, the barriers that, that come into getting closer.
（还有很多其他事情，我认为也触及了“友谊应该是轻松的”这个观念，嗯，我们不应该，你知道的，感到不便或给别人带来不便。这些是，我认为，阻碍关系变得更亲密的几个障碍。）
---
So, so then if someone were really interested in developing more intentional platonic relationships that are deeper than friendship as you're describing, what would be some of the steps you'd recommend? People take to to practice this in their in their lives with existing friends. Let's start there.
（那么，如果某人真的有兴趣发展更用心的、比你描述的普通友谊更深的柏拉图式关系，你会建议采取哪些步骤？让人们从与现有朋友的关系中开始实践这一点。）
Yeah, I mean one is how do you how do you get more time together and ah, one thing that might sound simple but is really helpful is having recurring ways to see friends. So I have a friend who has two young children and is really bound to her house and like there's a day of the week when her husband is um has choir practice and every other week I come by after her kids are in bed and we hang out at the house and it's like built into our calendars and even if one of us is ah, unavailable traveling, whatever, um we have this expectation of how much we're going to see each other that I think you can lose track of if you, you know see somebody once you don't make plans immediately and then then a month or two or three passes.
（好的，我的意思是，第一点是如何获得更多共处时间。嗯，有一件事听起来简单但非常有帮助，那就是建立定期见朋友的方式。比如我有个朋友，有两个年幼的孩子，基本上被拴在家里。她丈夫每周有一天有合唱团练习，每隔一周，我就在她孩子睡觉后去她家，我们一起在家里玩。这就像安排在我们的日历里一样。即使我们中有人没空、旅行了什么的，嗯，我们对彼此见面频率有一个预期。我觉得如果你只是见某人一次，没有立即制定计划，然后一两个月甚至三个月就过去了，这种预期就会消失。）
Another way that I've done this is to plan the next time you're going to see the person before you leave your like. The existing interactions. So if you're you know at dinner get out your calendars0 figure out the next time. Um, so that that's sort of like one thing that I would recommend.
（我做的另一种方式是在你们现有的互动结束前，就计划好下一次见面。所以，比如你们在吃晚饭时，就拿出日历，定好下一次时间。嗯，这是我会推荐的一个方法。）
I think on this the idea of like what is acceptable to ask of a friend or do for a friend. I think trying to experiment with asking for help a little bit more or at least telling people when you're, you know you're having you know, a low mood being open about the parts of your life that are not polished.
（我认为，关于可以向朋友请求什么或为朋友做什么。我认为可以尝试稍微多请求帮助，或者至少在你情绪低落时告诉别人，对你生活中不完美的部分保持开放。）
It invites other people to then share those things with you. I've, you know I've seen this play out with people in my my own life that ah, sharing something that is vulnerable becomes an invitation and then that kind of is a flywheel that can bring you closer and then the last suggestion I'll give is a more radical one, but maybe. Something to consider ah, I on the one hand, I really believe in the idea that we should take friendship more seriously. We shouldn't run away at the first difficulty. We should try to have, um, you know, harder conversations and make be intentional.
（这会邀请他人与你分享他们的事情。你知道，我在自己生活中与人相处时见过这种情况，分享一些脆弱的事情变成了一种邀请，然后这就像飞轮一样让你们更亲近。我给的最后一个建议更激进一些，但也许值得考虑。一方面，我真的很认同我们应该更认真地对待友谊，不应该在第一次遇到困难时就逃避，我们应该尝试进行更艰难的对话，并保持用心。）
But on the other hand, I think that there are ways that we we make friendship harder than it needs to be because we have oriented so many of us our lives around a different set of priorities which might be, as you know, the idea that like you want to have everything to yourself. You want to have a home that you have control over where you make a decision about where to live so that it's as close to work as possible or, you know, any, any number of other kinds of priorities.
（但另一方面，我认为我们有办法让友谊变得比它需要的更难，因为我们中许多人的生活围绕着一套不同的优先级，比如，你想拥有一切，你想拥有一个完全由自己掌控的家，你决定住在哪里主要是为了离工作尽可能近，或者任何其他各种各样的优先事项。）
And then we accept that we're just going to have some social deprivation as part of it. I don't think that's actually or I'd say accept, but I'm not sure that people are even conscious of it, that there's this, this huge loss that. We incur when we build our lives for some of these other values.
（然后我们接受了我们将会有一些社交剥夺，作为其中的一部分。我不认为那是……或者我应该说“接受”，但我不确定人们是否意识到这一点，当我们为了这些其他价值构建生活时，我们蒙受了这种巨大的损失。）
And I have found that, um, in my experience0 in other people that I've interviewed, if they situate their lives so that they it's built around friends physically close by their to their friends, it makes it so much easier to maintain those friendships.
（根据我的经验和采访过的其他人的情况，我发现，如果他们安排自己的生活，使其围绕在物理上靠近朋友的地方，那么维持这些友谊就会容易得多。）
And that is especially true for people who are really time strapped and like bound to the home, like if they have young children or if they have to care, take for, you know, a relative in their life that having somebody next door or down the block or, you know, just very close by it can make or break the ability to get close to other people.
（对于那些时间非常紧张、被拴在家里的人尤其如此，比如有年幼孩子的，或者需要照顾生活中的亲属的人。有个人就在隔壁或街区不远，或者非常近的地方，这可以决定能否与他人亲近。）
So I know that that can take some work and we can talk about that. But that's the more radical suggestion that I think you're doing work on the front end that makes friendship easier in the longer run.
（我知道这可能需要一些努力，我们可以谈谈这个。但这就是更激进的建议：我认为你是在前端下功夫，从长远来看让友谊变得更轻松。）
---
Well, you know, what you've shared is a lot around people that maybe are already in your life in some. Capacity and you see some opportunity to deepen the relationship. How, what are some tips you would suggest for people who are interested in meeting people with the hopes that it could turn into something more? How do you approach those sorts of relationships?
（嗯，你知道，你分享的很多是关于那些已经以某种身份存在于你生活中的人，以及你看到的深化关系的机会。对于那些有兴趣结识新朋友、并希望关系能发展得更深入的人，你会建议哪些技巧？你如何着手处理这类关系？）
Yeah, I mean there are kind of a few steps there. So one is like the search process. How do you find people who you might potentially want to become friends with and then there's okay, you found somebody who you want to be friends with or a group of people. How do you make them? How do you like end up becoming friends and then it's once you become casual friends, how do you become really close?
（是的，我的意思是，那里有几个步骤。一个是搜索过程：如何找到你可能想成为朋友的人？然后是，好了，你找到了一个或一群你想交朋友的人。你如何与他们建立友谊？你如何最终成为朋友？然后，一旦你们成为普通朋友，如何变得真正亲密？）
Um, I recently I went to a party that I felt like was a very interesting example of of a way to solve that first search problem. So there were a few of my friends who were had kind of realized that they wanted to widen their social circle because they would go to a party and like all their friends were friends with each other, so. They were like locked in this circle together and they held a party that they called three degrees, like the six degrees of or whatever. There was six, six degrees of separation with Kevin, the Kevin bacon thing.
（嗯，我最近参加了一个派对，我觉得这是一个解决第一个“搜索”问题的非常有趣的例子。我有几个朋友意识到他们想扩大社交圈，因为他们去派对时，发现他们所有的朋友都彼此认识。所以他们就像被锁在这个圈子里。他们举办了一个派对，称之为“三度派对”，就像六度分隔理论什么的，就是那个凯文·贝肯的六度分隔游戏。）
And the the rules were if you were invited you were asked to bring one friend that the hosts didn't know. So that was the second degree and then that person was also supposed to bring a friend that the first guest didn't know. So that's the third degree and it meant that two thirds of the party were people that the host didn't know.
（规则是：如果你被邀请，你需要带一个主人不认识的朋友。这是第二度。然后那个人也应该带一个第一位客人不认识的朋友。这是第三度。这意味着派对上有三分之二的人是主人不认识的。）
And also because everyone was kind of at ah there were a lot of people at a remove. Um, it made it ah more likely that you're going to meet new people. So that's a way I thought was really interesting for how you can encounter new people or you could do a version of that I think at a dinner party with eight people in addition to like all the all the sort of standard things that people will advise because they make sense like ah going to do some sort of activity that.
（而且因为每个人在某种程度上都有一定距离，嗯，这让你更有可能结识新朋友。所以我认为这是一个非常有趣的方式，可以帮助你遇到新朋友，或者你也可以在八人晚宴上做一个类似的版本。除此之外，还有人们通常会建议的所有标准方法，因为它们有道理，比如去参加某种活动。）
That is oriented around community. Like for me that's swing dance. It could be a religious community, something where there is a place where people are going to be and you're going to keep seeing them and inevitably you'll strike up conversation because you keep seeing them. So that's kind of one way to deal with the search issue.
（那种以社区为导向的活动。对我来说是摇摆舞。也可以是宗教社区，或者其他有固定场所、人们会经常出现的地方，你会不断见到他们，不可避免地会开始交谈，因为你总看到他们。这是处理“搜索”问题的一种方式。）
And then in terms of how do you make friends from people that you find, I would recommend trying to make the first move. And this can be difficult in friendship because I don't think we have the expectation of rejection in the way that it's really built into, by contrast, romantic relationships, that we understand that there's some amount of risk taking, putting yourself out there in romantic relationships.
（然后，关于如何与你找到的人成为朋友，我建议尝试采取主动。这在友谊中可能很难，因为我认为我们没有那种被拒绝的预期，而相比之下，在浪漫关系中，这种预期是固有的，我们理解其中需要一定程度的冒险，将自己展现出来。）
But the same goes for platonic relationships and it sucks to make a bid and have it rejected, um, you know, to invite someone to dinner or a coffee or an activity. But I think trying to embolden yourself to make the first move because otherwise there will be people. All maybe want to get to know each other but everybody's a little bit afraid.
（但柏拉图式关系也是如此。发出邀请却被拒绝确实很糟糕，嗯，你知道的，邀请某人共进晚餐、喝咖啡或参加活动。但我认为要努力鼓励自己主动出击，因为否则，可能大家都想互相认识，但每个人都有些害怕。）
And then the third thing is like how do you escalate the friendship? And I think that doing the kind of recurring hangouts that I suggested is is one way I've sometimes been really explicit with people and told them I have a friend crush on them or that you know earlier when I moved to dc where where I live I had decided I like told a friend I'm you know deciding to focus on like making a few really close friends as opposed to a wider circle and that she was one of those people and that ended up I think pretty much transforming our friendship.
（然后第三点是：如何提升友谊的层次？我认为像我建议的那种定期聚会是一种方式。我有时会非常明确地告诉别人，我对他们有朋友式的迷恋，或者，你知道，早些时候我搬到华盛顿特区（我住的地方）时，我决定——我告诉一个朋友——你知道，我决定专注于交几个真正亲密的朋友，而不是一个更广泛的圈子，而她就是其中之一。我认为这最终极大地改变了我们的友谊。）
We don't live in the same place but I you know officiated her wedding this this past year and I think that really articulating that I had that um I still thought so highly of her and I really wanted to get to know her. Um, made it easier for us to get closer or faster and like spend more time together than we might have otherwise.
（我们不住在同一个地方，但你知道，去年我主持了她的婚礼。我认为，真正表达出我仍然如此看重她，并且我真的想了解她，嗯，让我们更容易更快地变得更亲密，并且在一起的时间比原本可能有的要多。）
---
It it strikes me how much of a role like. Saying the thing really helps here and in a way that maybe we we do this in romantic relationships and not in others. Like I if someone were to say something like that to me it would become immediately obvious how strongly you feel about that relationship and that feels like such a simple but profound way to to think about this.
（这让我想到，“说出来”在这里扮演了多么重要的角色。也许我们在浪漫关系中会这样做，但在其他关系中不会。比如，如果有人对我说这样的话，我立刻就能明白你对那段关系的感受有多强烈。这感觉是如此简单却深刻的思考方式。）
Well, we have a lot of questions from members about the important role of physically being in in front of a person plays here. So valerie c for instance, it asks if you could tell us more about the research around how important authentic connection is when you're an in person having it be an in person experience versus something that's virtual.
（嗯，我们收到了很多会员关于“亲身出现在对方面前”所扮演的重要角色的提问。例如Valerie C问道：能否告诉我们更多关于“亲身在场”与“虚拟连接”相比，真实连接有多重要的研究？）
Um, I, you know, I didn't end up focusing that much on the kind of virtual ah connection piece. So I don't, I am, I don't like specific people to cite other than what I was mentioning before around you know one of the key um, key ingredients of and a very close relationship and attachment relationship does involve physical touch and obviously there's going to be variation across people.
（嗯，你知道，我最终没有太多关注虚拟连接这部分。所以我不……我没有具体的人可以引用，除了我之前提到的，你知道，非常亲密的关系和依恋关系的一个关键要素确实涉及身体接触，而且显然因人而异。）
Um, so I but you know I would say like there are ways that you can connect with people virtually as as we are doing now, but there are things that you don't pick up when you are texting with someone. As an example, I had a friend who, um, I live with who.
（嗯，所以，但你知道，我想说，就像我们现在这样，有办法虚拟地与人联系，但有些事情是你在与人发短信时无法察觉的。举个例子，我有个朋友，嗯，我和她住在一起。）
Was going through something very difficult and some and someone in the house asked how she was doing and she could not fake it. She couldn't you know she couldn't decide to. If someone had asked her that by text she might have not answered immediately or you know brushed it off. But when you were in person with with people there's body language.
（她当时正在经历非常困难的事情，家里有人问她怎么样了，她无法假装。她不能……你知道她没法决定……如果有人通过短信问她，她可能不会立即回复，或者你知道，搪塞过去。但当你与人面对面时，有肢体语言。）
There are there are expressions that I think especially if there's something that's kind of more difficult going on that you pick up on as well as just getting to know people better. You you know like I think of um a friend of mine who will just like she can get jittery and like shake her leg a lot and that is a signal to me that she's feeling particularly anxious and um by observe like observing that help me understand other things about her.
（还有表情。我认为，特别是当发生一些更困难的事情时，你能察觉到这些，同时也能更好地了解一个人。你知道，比如我想到一个朋友，她会变得紧张，腿抖得厉害，这对我来说是她特别焦虑的信号。嗯，通过观察这些，帮助我理解她其他的事情。）
So um while I do think it's, it's really great to be able to connect with people all around the world through different kinds of um online platforms and. And text0 voice chat. I don't think that they are a total replacement for the the things that you learn about people and the ways you're able to care for them, like giving a hug or being really what it means to be physically present that it's you need at least some in person interaction. I think at some point to to get really close.
（所以，嗯，虽然我确实认为通过不同类型的在线评台和文本、语音聊天与世界各地的
人联系非常棒，但我不认为它们能完全取代你了解他人的方式，以及你能够关爱他们的方式，比如给一个拥抱，或者真正体会“亲身在场”的意义。我认为，要变得真正亲密，至少在某些时候需要面对面的互动。）
---
And I'd love to dive into this a little bit more later later in the conversation, just sort of thinking about the the future and sort of where we're headed, but sort of sticking in the space of how to cultivate these relationships, thinking about support for this, what can loved ones or family members do to support people who have decided to deepen a platonic relationship.
（我很想在对话稍后部分再深入探讨这一点，想想未来和我们前进的方向。但现在还是停留在如何培养这些关系的空间里，思考一下支持的问题：亲人或家人可以做些什么来支持那些决定深化一段柏拉图式关系的人？）
I think one thing is to come in from a place of curiosity rather than judgment. One thing that I saw people who had platonic partnerships really struggle with was the constant misunderstanding that they were up against. And often not just sort of benign misunderstanding but people who kind of stigma, like treated their friendship in a way that was stigmatized and that could include gossiping or, you know, I write about a mother who is just like I don't understand how you can be so close to somebody who you're not romantically involved in and was convinced that the the friendship between two her son and her son's best friend was a romantic relationship.
（我认为，一点是要带着好奇而非评判的态度。我看到那些拥有柏拉图式伴侣关系的人真正挣扎的一点，是他们不断面临的误解。而且往往不仅是善意的误解，还有带有污名化的看法，比如以被污名化的方式看待他们的友谊，这可能包括流言蜚语。或者，你知道，我写过一个母亲，她就是不明白你怎么能和没有浪漫关系的人如此亲密，并且坚信她儿子和他最好的朋友之间的友谊是浪漫关系。）
I mean that's pretty common. So I think coming in from not a place of like here's how I expect you to live your life, why aren't you living your life that way? The only way I can understand this friendship is if it is romantic or or telling them like your priorities arey. Up, which is also something I've heard. Um, yeah yeah those are those are not very helpful and instead being like who matters to you? Why does this person matter to you? Like coming from a place of these open ended questions and trying to get to know the person treating them as you would treat someone's new romantic romantic partner or somebody that they or maybe a relative that it's somebody who will who really matters to a person you care about and therefore by extension you want to care about them to. So I think that that's, that's one way loved ones can be supportive.
（我的意思是这很常见。所以我认为，不要从“这是我期望你的生活方式，你为什么不那样生活？”或者“我理解这种友谊的唯一方式是它是浪漫关系”，或者告诉他们“你的优先级搞错了”（这也是我听到过的说法）这样的立场出发。嗯，是的，这些都不是很有帮助。相反，应该是：“谁对你重要？为什么这个人对你重要？”从这些开放式问题出发，试着去了解这个人，像对待某人新交的浪漫伴侣，或者他们的亲戚那样对待他们——因为他们对你关心的人来说真正重要，因此你也想关心他们。所以我认为，这是亲人可以提供支持的一种方式。）
---
And what about the the structures around us. You you talk about this in, in the talk and a fair amount in the book, this idea of friends being supported in the workplace or in their communities and government, what sort of things do we need to make room for more expansive and meaningful platonic bonds outside of of of these? In our, in our wider communities,
（那么，我们周围的结构呢？你在演讲和书中都相当多地谈到了这一点：在工作场所、社区和政府中支持朋友的理念。我们需要做些什么，才能在我们更广泛的社区中，为更广泛、更有意义的柏拉图式纽带腾出空间？）
I mean I think the kind of underlying principle of not coming from a rigid place of this, there's one or two kinds of relationships that matter, you know, romantic and familial and everything else is less, less important. I think that that translates to workplaces and to policy.
（我的意思是，我认为其基本原则是，不要僵化地认为只有一两种关系重要，你知道，浪漫关系和家庭关系，其他一切都次要。我认为这可以延伸到工作场所和政策中。）
So ah, you know, one way this this tends to come up is when somebody when a friend is ill, um or has passed away and the question is what will the workplace do to support them or not? And also what is policy allow. So there was a woman who I mentioned earlier who took care of her best friend who was who was dying of cancer, was the main caregiver and her workplace did not entitle her to family medical leave, um, nor when her friend died. And was she entitled to bereavement leave because those were benefits that were restricted to if it was a family member. Or a friend.
（所以，嗯，你知道，这种情况经常出现的一种情况是，当朋友生病或去世时，问题是工作场所是否会提供支持？政策又允许什么？所以我之前提到过一位女性，她照顾她死于癌症的最好的朋友，是主要照顾者，但她的工作场所没有给她家庭医疗假的资格，嗯，朋友去世时也没有丧亲假，因为这些福利仅限于家庭成员。或者朋友……）
Interestingly, if this had happened now, the state she lives in Minnesota would has expanded the definition of kind of who counts as somebody that you can take this kind of lead for. So it's anybody that you, you know, you're close enough to consider family, which can be a platonic relationship. So that's something that both I think workplaces and policy can, can do to be more expansive about how, ah, about providing benefits and rights to people who are outside of these the boxes of um, kind of blood or adopted family or marriage.
（有趣的是，如果这件事发生在现在，她居住的明尼苏达州已经扩展了有资格享受这类假期的人员定义。所以，可以是任何你足够亲近、视如家人的人，这可以是一种柏拉图式关系。所以，我认为这是工作场所和政策都可以做得更广泛的方面，为那些不在血缘、收养家庭或婚姻这些框框之内的人提供福利和权利。）
And then the one other kind of significant policy area that I explore has to do with the fact that we really only have marriage as a a, source of rights,0 benefits in this country. Whereas in other other countries and also in other times in the us, there have been things like domestic partnerships that would allow people who are not romantically involved to be able to assign rights to another person.
（然后我探讨的另一个重要政策领域与一个事实有关：在这个国家，我们基本上只有婚姻是权利和福利的来源。而在其他国家和美国其他时期，有像“家庭伴侣关系”这样的东西，允许没有浪漫关系的人将权利赋予另一个人。）
And instead what ends up happening is that if you want to have your friend be your, you know, the heir to the, you know that the goods you have in your life or you want them to have medical or legal power of attorney rights mean those are things that you have to do by going to a lawyer, getting, which can be expensive and going through a lot of paperwork that may or may not be recognized in the heat of the moment like in a hospital because it's, it's not something that people are used to.
（而最终发生的情况是，如果你想让你朋友成为你……你知道……你生活中财产的继承人，或者想让他们拥有医疗或法律授权书权利，意味着你必须去找律师办理，这可能很昂贵，而且需要经过大量文书工作，这些在紧急时刻（比如在医院里）可能被承认，也可能不被承认，因为这不是人们习惯的做法。）
They're either used to this status that's associated with marriage or associated with being a family member, but not to the idea that a friend can be significant. So one thing that I saw from different legal scholars was the proposal. To offer legal alternatives to marriage like that they're, you know, when you go to the dmv, you designate a person who is the default person to handle medical and legal things in your life and that and that would be especially helpful for people who aren't married.
（他们要么习惯于与婚姻相关的身份，要么习惯于作为家庭成员的身份，但不习惯朋友可以很重要这个想法。所以我从不同法律学者那里看到的一个建议是：提供婚姻的法律替代方案，就像……你知道，你去车管所时，可以指定一个人作为默认处理你生活中医疗和法律事务的人，这对未婚人士尤其有帮助。）
But, um, you can also ah, you know in other cases you would be able to assign rights to different people which again is something that you can do if you spend a lot of money and have the wherewithal to go through a lawyer for for different sorts of contracts. But that's not accessible to most people doesn't. You know it's not like20 or30dollars in the way that a marriage licenses. So it so having a way that the state could recognize relationships that are not romantic or familial in nature would be a really big step.
（但是，嗯，你也可以……你知道，在其他情况下，你可以将权利分配给不同的人，这同样是你如果花很多钱并且有能力通过律师签订各种合同才能做到的。但这对大多数人来说并不容易。你知道，它不像结婚证那样只要20或30美元。所以，如果国家有办法承认非浪漫或非家庭性质的关系，那将是重大的一步。）
---
Well, we have a question from Carlos oh, which. It's really interesting connected to this. Like if we look at the opposite end of this, do you think that there's a business case for organizations to, to do this to sort of to support these sorts of relationships and connections?
（嗯，我们有一个来自Carlos O的问题，与此紧密相关。如果我们从另一面看这个问题，你认为组织这样做——支持这类关系和连接——有商业上的理由吗？）
Um, yeah, it's interesting. I mean I think that people are more content when they have a life. That sort of holistically feels full. I know that there is research also. I mean if you're thinking specifically about friendships in the workplace that that can be really sort of have have effects on retention if people feel close close to others at work.
（嗯，是的，这很有趣。我的意思是，我认为当人们拥有整体上感到充实的生活时，他们会更满足。我知道也有相关研究。我是说，如果你特指工作场所的友谊，如果人们感觉在工作中与他人亲近，那确实会对员工保留率产生影响。）
But if it's, you know if you're talking about close friendships outside of work, um and let's say it's an occasion like someone is sick in their lives, um, I think people will feel a sense of gratitude to the, you know, organization that they are being seen as a whole person who. Who isn't just there to be a kind of cog in the machine and where there are very narrow exceptions for when they're they're not allowed to work.
（但如果是工作之外的亲密友谊，嗯，比如说发生像有人生病这样的事，嗯，我认为人们会对组织产生感激之情，因为他们被视为一个完整的人，而不仅仅是机器中的一个齿轮，并且组织只有在非常有限的情况下才不允许他们工作。）
I think people were like respond to that really well and it feels in line with um, you know different kinds of like affinity groups within organizations or the way that people can be really committed to a workplace that gives them high quality family benefits because they think that that will better, you know, allow them to experience the entirety of their their lives and um not feel like they're compromising, um, you know getting promoted at work and that kind of thing.
（我认为人们会对此反应良好，而且这感觉与组织内不同类型的亲和团体，或者人们真正忠诚于提供高质量家庭福利的工作场所的方式是一致的，因为他们认为那将更好地，你知道，让他们体验生活的全部，并且不会觉得他们在妥协，嗯，你知道，比如在工作晋升之类的事情上。）
So I can imagine that that businesses would benefit um and have happier and more devoted employees when these sorts of relationships are are recognized.
（所以我可以想象，当这类关系得到认可时，企业会受益，嗯，并且拥有更快乐、更忠诚的员工。）
---
And I imagine that probably trickles out beyond organizations into the way communities sort of tackle this and think about this too. Um, well one thing that really struck me in in reading your book is, is really the diversity of people who have you've, you've encountered who have chosen to sort of pursue these types of relationships. It seems to really transcend everything from race, gender, age, sexuality, all types of, of of identifying factors.
（而且我想这可能也会从组织延伸到社区处理和思考这个问题的方式。嗯，我读你的书时，真正打动我的一点是，你遇到的那些选择追求这类关系的人，其多样性真的非常惊人。这似乎真的超越了种族、性别、年龄、性取向等所有类型的身份因素。）
Although you do see that the different identifying factors people have impact the way that those involved navigate these sorts of relationships. So I'm curious to know as we sort of look to the future how you you see some of this changing as the demographic makeup of our of our world continues to evolve.
（尽管你确实看到人们不同的身份因素影响了参与者处理这类关系的方式。所以我很好奇，当我们展望未来时，你如何看待随着世界人口构成持续演变，其中一些方面会如何变化。）
Yeah, it was really important. I mean thank you for saying that. It was really important to me to show that the variety of people who have these sorts of friendships that it's not um just some, I don't know like I think young people um often believe that they're, they've invented everything and in fact I think the most powerful stories were people in their, you know sixties sevent s80 s who who have. Really shown what it looks like to have a real committed long term friendship.
（是的，这非常重要。谢谢你的肯定。对我来说，展示拥有这类友谊的人群多样性非常重要，这不只是……我不知道，比如我觉得年轻人常常认为他们发明了一切，但事实上，我认为最有力的故事是那些六七十岁、八十多岁的人的故事，他们真正展现了拥有一段真正忠诚的长期友谊是什么样子。）
But you know, as we move forward, so there are demographic trends that I think point to people finding, um, or having the need to look more broadly for the kind of support and connection that they get. Um, many of the people that I wrote about um, something, you know something didn't quite work out in their lives that they as they'd expected. They didn't. They maybe didn't find a partner.
（但你知道，随着我们向前发展，有一些人口趋势，我认为表明人们正在寻找，或者有必要更广泛地寻找他们获得的那种支持和连接。嗯，我写到的许多人，嗯，你知道，他们生活中有些事情没有完全按他们预期的那样发展。他们没有……他们也许没有找到伴侣。）
Um, or there's one person I wrote about who was on the asexual spectrum and realized that a sort of. I don't know a standard or like conventional relationship was not going to be the kind of thing that they would pursue. And I think as we see, um, the rates of marriage declining and people getting married later that that is it can be a form of encouragement to be more creative with finding a life that you feel fulfilled by.
（嗯，或者我写到的一个人，他在无性恋谱系中，并且意识到一种……我不知道，标准的或传统的关系不是他们会追求的东西。而且我认为，随着我们看到结婚率下降和人们结婚更晚，这可以成为一种鼓励，让人更有创造力地去寻找一种让你感到满足的生活。）
I think there's also increasing recognition that the ways that we have set expectations for a healthy relationship are actually undermining those relationships and that it really helps to have a wider set of people. I mean, Esther perel, the psychologist, has famously said that we now expect of one person what we used to expect of a whole village. So I think there's some kind of cultural forces that might that might increasingly encourage people to look to the significance of their friendships and broadening the kinds of people that they want to have in their lives.
（我认为人们也越来越认识到，我们为健康关系设定的期望方式实际上正在损害这些关系，而拥有更广泛的人群确实有帮助。我是说，心理学家Esther Perel有句名言：我们现在对一个人的期望，过去是对整个村子的期望。所以我认为有某种文化力量可能会越来越多地鼓励人们关注友谊的重要性，并拓宽他们希望生活中拥有的人群类型。）
And I think I've just seen such a. Blow up an interest in chosen families and also particularly for caregivers, having this idea of a village that they are, they don't have to go it alone. That parenting has been so difficult for so many people and isolating, and there's just a lot more interest.
（而且我认为，我已经看到人们对“选择的家庭”的兴趣激增，特别是对于照顾者来说，拥有“需要一个村庄”的理念，他们不必独自承担。育儿对许多人来说如此困难和孤立，现在人们对这方面兴趣浓厚得多。）
That I have seen and I can point to sort of like organizations that have that are doing work on this in response to that um that growing interest in looking to to friends and being creative about what it, what it looks like to to kind of like rebuild something that had existed more commonly in the past and exist in some kind of some cultures as all over the place to not just have a small nuclear family but maybe to have multigenerational homes or extended households where you have aunties and uncles who may or may not be related to to you but really feel like those those deep connections.
（我看到的这种兴趣，我可以指出一些组织正在为此努力，以回应这种日益增长的兴趣：向朋友寻求支持，并有创造力地思考如何重建过去更常见、在某些文化中普遍存在的东西——不只是有一个小核心家庭，而是可能拥有多代同堂的家庭或大家庭，那里有阿姨叔叔，他们可能与你有关，也可能无关，但真的感觉像那些深厚的连接。）
---
Well, you mentioned Tech earlier and how that wasn't really a big part of how you approach this. But as we're thinking to the future I'm interested to hea
